Race tyre heat cycles

[TonyB]

Good thread Quasi! I was thinking of starting something similar, but I'll put in my question here.

I've been using 'pre-loved' Pirelli Super Corsa Pro's and such like, purely because they are cheap. Being a budget oriented racer, I can't really justify the expense of warmers, a generator, a spare set of wheels and wets. After my last crash, (lost the front at PotHole, Ruapuna, on cold tyres which had seen better days) I started thinking that maybe semi-slick race tyres weren't the best idea. Given that I have no choice but to use the same tyres in all conditions, hot/cold/wet, maybe I should go for something that offers a good compromise, with a decent tread... like a good street tyre. Anyone care to offer their thoughts on that?

Note that at the BEARS winter series, I do 1 practice, 6 races, and maybe an 'all in'....8 heat cycles...

Funnily enough, I went to speak to a tyre guy about it, and he was thinking the exact same thing after struggling with Super Corsa Pros in the cold and wet recently. The theory is- they are designed to work well when cold, and in the wet, and when its hot. They'll never have the ultimate grip of a specialist race tyre for any given condition, but they'll be close, and given the heat cycle factor, may perform better than a well used race tyre anyway.

[Quasievil]

Good thread Quasi! I was thinking of starting something similar, but I'll put in my question here.

I've been using 'pre-loved' Pirelli Super Corsa Pro's and such like, purely because they are cheap. Being a budget oriented racer, I can't really justify the expense of warmers, a generator, a spare set of wheels and wets. After my last crash, (lost the front at PotHole, Ruapuna, on cold tyres which had seen better days) I started thinking that maybe semi-slick race tyres weren't the best idea. Given that I have no choice but to use the same tyres in all conditions, hot/cold/wet, maybe I should go for something that offers a good compromise, with a decent tread... like a good street tyre. Anyone care to offer their thoughts on that?

Note that at the BEARS winter series, I do 1 practice, 6 races, and maybe an 'all in'....8 heat cycles...

Funnily enough, I went to speak to a tyre guy about it, and he was thinking the exact same thing after struggling with Super Corsa Pros in the cold and wet recently. The theory is- they are designed to work well when cold, and in the wet, and when its hot. They'll never have the ultimate grip of a specialist race tyre for any given condition, but they'll be close, and given the heat cycle factor, may perform better than a well used race tyre anyway.

Hiya Dude, I went through that process last year in that I wanted to have one tyre to do it all, I went with the Continental Race attack on the front and a street attack (race) on the rear, they should have done the lot however the tyre as awesome as it is in the dry was simply not up to it in the wet at race pace
End result is I went and got some wets and race slicks in the dry. I cant see one tyre doing it all sadly

[TonyB]

Hiya Dude, I went through that process last year in that I wanted to have one tyre to do it all, I went with the Continental Race attack on the front and a street attack (race) on the rear, they should have done the lot however the tyre as awesome as it is in the dry was simply not up to it in the wet at race pace
End result is I went and got some wets and race slicks in the dry. I cant see one tyre doing it all sadly

Yep totally agree. Its just that I have been trying to make Race Techs or Super Corsa Pros do it all. So if I can only have one set of tyres, maybe I'd be better off with something a little less focussed and with more tread and ability to cope with the cold.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Tyre warmers should be banned for Motards far as I'm concerned.

They're fucking dirtbikes, and should be a cheap class to race. Having to have warmers to be competitive simply adds to the cost. Leave tyre warmers to the tar babies. I've never used them...and you can still scoot along at a good pace and have fun.

[Patch]

Tyre warmers should be banned for Motards far as I'm concerned.

that's just asking for trouble at the first corner - not to mention it will fuck your tyre life

can you not read??

[Quasievil]

Tyre warmers should be banned for Motards far as I'm concerned.

They're fucking dirtbikes, and should be a cheap class to race. Having to have warmers to be competitive simply adds to the cost. Leave tyre warmers to the tar babies. I've never used them...and you can still scoot along at a good pace and have fun.

yeah but its for sale mate, trade it for $8500 ish and sell me a nice GSXR and we have a deal !

I hear you on the tyre warmers bro, I do use them however

[Crasherfromwayback]

that's just asking for trouble at the first corner - not to mention it will fuck your tyre life

can you not read??

Is that right? Odd...I've been road racing dirtbikes for over 20 years and have never had any issues running towards the front without them. Hell...I've even won a few races. And fuck your tyre life? Really? How so mate? Yes I can read by the way. Thing is...if you're not using tyre warmers and you don't cook them...tyres actually last quite well mate. That much I do know.

Now like I said...they're fucking dirtbikes. If you get them a lil sideways so fucking what? Why add to the expense when without warmers etc...it's a lot more affordable?

By the way...waaay back when I raced 250 proddie and 883's...we weren't allowed warmers. Didn't cause any more accidents as we rode to the avail tyre grip...and they lasted probably better than tyres that've had warmers used.

[TonyB]

By the way...waaay back when I raced 250 proddie and 883's...we weren't allowed warmers. Didn't cause any more accidents as we rode to the avail tyre grip...

Good point. I believe my recent off happened because I had been using warmers, the day cooled down, we got called up to the dummy grid and sat there for some time, then did a warmup lap and sat on the grid for ages, and by the time I got going my tyres were getting cold. I rocked into the second corner used to the grip from hot tyres, and it wasn't there...

[sugilite:Me]

I have raced on 2nd hand slicks for what seems forever. Different brands respond differently in regards to how they respond to multiple heat cycles. My findings are, Dunlops will go off say 10 to 15% after the first heat cycle then will stay consistent right down to the bottom of the wear dots. Pirellis lose up to say 20% of their initial grip after the 1st heat cycle and degrade further with each heat cycle. Metzlers are similar with extra poor side grip thrown in. Michilins are similar to dunlops, but when they let go, there is very little warning, where as dunlops will slide progressively and consistently.

One trick to reduce heat cycles is to simply put the tyre warmers on at the start of the day, and put them straight back on after each race, and hey presto...one heat cycle per race day. This is all for club racing folks.

Hope this info helps

[ajturbo]

i'm struggling to work out, why the big Q would need to even ask this question....

because... does he go fast enough to even warm up his tires??

(time for AJ to hide)

[Mishy]

. Thing is...if you're not using tyre warmers and you don't cook them...tyres actually last quite well mate. That much I do know.


By the way...waaay back when I raced 250 proddie and 883's...we weren't allowed warmers. Didn't cause any more accidents as we rode to the avail tyre grip...and they lasted probably better than tyres that've had warmers used.

Mate, things are a little different with tyre compounding now than they were 10 or 15 years ago !
For the sake of clarity - modern race compond tyres get eaten to death by rapid heat up or cool down. Not to mention the damage done to the surface of the tyre by being thrashed when below the lower limit of the designed operating temperature corridor. That's why all manufacturers list their race specific treaded tyres as "tyre warmer required"
The biggest advantage to running warmers (beyong that leery 1st turn on cold race tyres) is the lack of full heat cycles that damage the tyre, and also the gentle cool down once you switch the warmers off when they're still on the bike (we all do that, right ?)
If you run tyres like a Continental Race Street, then it's no problem, necause the are ver flexible when cold, and warm up quickly, but anything that is a compound marked race specific tyre simply has to have warmers to get the best performance and life out of them.
If you have super sticky tyres, do yourself a favour and get the best life and behaviour out of them by sticking the warmers on EVERY TIME YOU CAN ! Now repeat that 100 times so you don't forget

[ajturbo]

Yep totally agree. Its just that I have been trying to make Race Techs or Super Corsa Pros do it all. So if I can only have one set of tyres, maybe I'd be better off with something a little less focussed and with more tread and ability to cope with the cold.

why?
does it snow on race day or something???

[Mishy]

Yep totally agree. Its just that I have been trying to make Race Techs or Super Corsa Pros do it all. So if I can only have one set of tyres, maybe I'd be better off with something a little less focussed and with more tread and ability to cope with the cold.

That's a pretty good plan really
The winter stuff can be kinda tough on real sticky tyres, so picking something a bit more road orientated, and a bit more flexible for the cold times makes good sense. They would tend to give more predictable behavior, more resistance to tearing, and quicker warmup on a cold track.
Then you could go for the stickier stuff when summer comes back

[Crasherfromwayback]

Mate, things are a little different with tyre compounding now than they were 10 or 15 years ago !
For the sake of clarity - modern race compond tyres get eaten to death by rapid heat up or cool down. Not to mention the damage done to the surface of the tyre by being thrashed when below the lower limit of the designed operating temperature corridor. That's why all manufacturers list their race specific treaded tyres as "tyre warmer required"
The biggest advantage to running warmers (beyong that leery 1st turn on cold race tyres) is the lack of full heat cycles that damage the tyre, and also the gentle cool down once you switch the warmers off when they're still on the bike (we all do that, right ?)
If you run tyres like a Continental Race Street, then it's no problem, necause the are ver flexible when cold, and warm up quickly, but anything that is a compound marked race specific tyre simply has to have warmers to get the best performance and life out of them.
If you have super sticky tyres, do yourself a favour and get the best life and behaviour out of them by sticking the warmers on EVERY TIME YOU CAN ! Now repeat that 100 times so you don't forget

Oooooohhh...I can feel the love! While I appreciate the fact that you feel the need to tell me I'm both old... and out of touch...I feel the need to tell you that I think you're full of shit.

You see...tyres have always been built to run best at the correct temp. It's just that we haven't always had that technology avail to us to keep them there...here in lil old NZ.

So we made do. Always have. You're a mummy's boy. Always will be. There was a guy by the name of Mike Webb...he raced TZ Yamaha's here in NZ. He beat up on the other guys and gals racing 250 two strokes here. He was fucking good. He never used tyre warmers when the 250 Gp racers in Europe had them. He's now highly thought of in the GP world. Shit...he may even be the tech inpsector!

So to say that tyres can't be used cold...or close to cold...is G A Fucking Y.

I used Yokohama 'U' Softs' for qualifying at the 250 proddie support races at manfield when the world superbikes were here. Were they supposed to be used with heaters? Yep. Still made it happen without them.

Too many people get too fucked in the head over things they think they need...but could do well without.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Good point. I believe my recent off happened because I had been using warmers, the day cooled down, we got called up to the dummy grid and sat there for some time, then did a warmup lap and sat on the grid for ages, and by the time I got going my tyres were getting cold. I rocked into the second corner used to the grip from hot tyres, and it wasn't there...

There are waaaaay too many people here...and in road racing in general...that think they need warmers...Ohlins...pit boards and sponsors to go fast.

Fuck off.