Some more ideas on growing the Nationals

[AndrewStroud]

Hi Everyone, Since it's my first post on here I hope I can get away with writting a noval.

My thoughts re, not enough bikes on the grid and some ideas that could encourage more participation in Superbikes / 600's?

Exactly what to do could depend on whether we are looking to attract more riders from within NZ or looking to attract more riders from outside NZ?

1). - If just NZ, then my thoughts would be to make it easier, cheaper and provide some more incentive to compete. Provide rules that both riders and distributors are happy with. I.e. Allowing bikes that riders want to ride which can be tuned at a reasonable cost, and if the distributors input is responsible for half the bikes on the grid (as per Superbike class) then they need to see that the rules will allow their bikes to be competitive. But also rules that do not require people to spend a fortune just because others are. (Personally, I believe that the time has finally come where the performance of the top sports bikes produced by the main manufactures has come to a level that would still allow for close racing even if the bikes were in a near standard form.)
From a riders perspective, I don't mind if the bike has 200hp or 180hp, as long as I wasn't at any disadvantage to others. If it costs an extra $30,000 each, for everyone to have 200hp instead of 180, then I'd expect the majority would pick the 180hp option.

2) To make it more attractive for riders from overseas to compete.
- Aline rules with similar classes overseas and invite overseas riders. I.e. NZ Superbike rules could be alined with Aus Superbikes and if there is to be a second racing class within the Superbike class then why not aline rules with Australia 1000cc Superstock ( standard motor, but allows suspension and exhaust system). Then invite Australian riders and even help organise a container to bring their gear over and back. (who wants a sideline job??). It wouldn't hurt to also promote the NZ series abroad and invite riders from American.. UK...Japan...Europe.. Etc. Our series can be at the perfect time of year for Northern hemisphere 'Racers' to gain more experience, ride on new tracks and get extra development time on their bikes, ....plus get a Summer holiday.......( any extra container space may be sellable to trackday fans.) Air tickets to Aus have never been cheaper
Current NZ Superbike rules are very close to Aus Superbike's. The main difference being, we can machine pistons. Why not start off by changing that one rule to be in line with Australia. This would help reduce preparation time and costs for NZ riders while making it an option to race your bike in Aus and for Aussies to race their bikes here. For this season we could allow the older model bikes to run with their already machined pistons but the new bikes / distributor bikes must have standard pistons. I'd expect the new models to still have an advantage anyway and it may inspire more privateers to compete on their bikes that aren't a new model.
.
Having a 1000cc Superstock kind of class (open Production) would lift the grid numbers and provide a cheaper way to race a 1000. Open Production riders could prove themselves by mixing it with as many Superbikes as they could.
This could also be proposed for the 600 class. i.e. Within the current class a more 'Production' class could line up with the Aus 600 Superstock rules i.e. Basically a muffler, rear spring, fork oil and a fairing.
Lap time wise, I'd estimate the Proddy bikes to be less than a second a lap slower, though if the Proddy riders are concerned about being lapped then we could go back to having three shorter races - say 10laps each(or 25km), one Sat arvo and two Sunday. Mark one set of tyres to be used for qualifying and race 1 then on Sunday mark another set of tyres to be used for race 2 and 3. .....??

The privateers cup idea seems ok though personally when I raced in the '06 Australian Superbike Championship I got points for the privateers cup, but really it didn't mean a lot to me. Riders seem to want to race for a National Championship title. If the Stock Production classes were given National Championship status then there would probably be more interest and more competitors enter.

Tyres;
I'd be just as happy using 2 sets of harder compound production tyres for a weekend as I would be using 4 or 5 sets of the softest compound slicks that we can get away with.
It would be great if a 'control tyre' could work here as it does in other championships ? If a NZ tyre distributor could sponsor the series and offer a deal to provide tyres to every rider for, say... $400 a set and then maybe offer a $200 buy back option then that would significantly reduce the cost of being competitive. ( Apparently the full retail for a rear Dunlop Slick can be near on $700!!! And if you want to be competitive you probably need to test 3 different compounds before qualifying even starts, just to see what compound is going to work best for the particular track and race distance!!!!) The treaded proddy tyres are so close to slicks now anyway but they are sellable to road guys when used. Gareth Jones used them as control tyres in the World Superstocks last year and said they worked really well.

In considering other ways to increase M/c racing profile and encourage more sponsor support could we re-look at joining one or two of the car meetings.
Sponsors could invite clients and put on hospitality in an action packed exciting atmosphere with lots of spectators.
V8 Nationals get good crowds and TV is already there. A1GP was open to including bikes in their Australian round so why not try for it here (if it's still happening). Timaru also worked well and Hampton Downs could be another good one to enquire about. Most car race spectators are pleasantly surprised and very impressed with the speed and dynamic racing that bikes can provide. Distributors also see their products displayed to another audience. Companies could be more likely to sponsor the race, (getting naming rights) which could go towards providing some reasonable prize money.
I know Motorsport NZ are pressed for time at there meetings so what about proposing Superbikes and 600's in the same race. (Gareth may be the only one with a problem trying to ride two bikes at once if they both carried national points.)
The lap times are close enough between 1000's and 600's and a grid of 35 bikes would be impressive.
Also, as there are already some motorcycle clubs discussing whether it is worth it for them to hold a National round then in ultilising a car meet this could provide an easier out for them.

Race Calendar;
In the past our last round has often been the only event to take place after the 1st round of the Australian Championship. That can put a spanner in the works for riders on both sides of the Tasman.
Can we communicate with Motorcycling Australia and coordinate it so our last round finished a couple of weeks before their first round starts.
Re meetings;
There seems to be good numbers turning up for winter series and club meetings, so there is the potential for many of these riders to contest the Nationals if it stacks up for them.
I understand that the 3 weeks away down the South Island can be too much $ and time away for some. We could look at making, say, Timaru a double header, where Wednesday or Thursday is official practice, Friday Qualifying, Saturday Rd? and Sunday the next round. Also this weekend could be the South Island round(s) that is Televised as the public have already seen lots of racing from Ruapuna but not from Levels. Teretonga is a great track and it would be a shame to leave it out though how many riders don't do the Nationals due to the expense, time off and distance to travel? Teretonga has the Burt Munroe Meeting for those who really need to race there.
Pukekohe could be left out as we heard that the Auckland Club is finding it hard to make it viable and besides that, really, it's too dangerous for a National round.
The series could finish Mid February with a Televised final round at Hampton Downs. A container could be at Hampton Downs ready to be loaded with bikes / gear to be delivered to Philip Island WSB for Round 1 of the Aussy Champs.

I hope you guys can help sort out any of the really practical ideas so we can put them forward asap.

Cheers,

Andrew

[Patch]

Good ideas mate - makes sense aligning with our Aussie brothers (no pun intended) hope it goes someway to sorting the problems out.


Welcome to the nut house

[Shaun P]

Thanks for that! There are some good ideas there, alot have been thrased around here already and are incorporated in the latest edition of the proposed rule changes as of 11 May 09 see here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=98942

Im not too sure on mixing up with car racing though, apparently it has been tried in Aus and when the bike race took place during and around the lunch break - the punters went to lunch! I guess they came to watch the drivers/cars they were familiar with. Could happen more so as a combined 1 off trophy race at something like the A1GP?

The last paragraph has some good merit, would like to see that happen.

[Peter Smith]

This could also be proposed for the 600 class. i.e. Within the current class a more 'Production' class could line up with the Aus 600 Superstock rules i.e. Basically a muffler, rear spring, fork oil and a fairing.

It would be great if a 'control tyre' could work here as it does in other championships

There seems to be good numbers turning up for winter series and club meetings, so there is the potential for many of these riders to contest the Nationals if it stacks up for them.
Cheers,

Andrew

I believe they are looking at these types of changes.
I like the idea of a muffler, rear spring, fork oil and a fairing.
Someone could race a bike for a year then sell it as a stock bike without loosing a heap of money on cams, motor work, shocks, etc.
The winter series allows some stock bikes to get on to the track, but you wont see them at the nationals unless the rules are changed to make them competive.
I might even be tempted to give the 600 class ago.

[Shaun P]

I believe they are looking at these types of changes.
I like the idea of a muffler, rear spring, fork oil and a fairing.
Someone could race a bike for a year then sell it as a stock bike without loosing a heap of money on cams, motor work, shocks, etc.
The winter series allows some stock bikes to get on to the track, but you wont see them at the nationals unless the rules are changed to make them competive.
I might even be tempted to give the 600 class ago.

There already are proposed rule changes to basically that effect see http://www.mnz.co.nz/Proposed_Rule_Changes.aspx

and http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=98942

[Kiwi Graham:Me]

Welcome Andrew to the madness that is KB, you will soon see the place is full of wise men and women

Many of the suggestions you have made have been bounced around these hallowed halls before, I have raised the idea of joining forces with the V8 crowd in a similar fashion to Macau GP etc. The TV crowd are already there instantly improving coverage of our sport together with a whole load of petrol heads and yes bike racing is a spectacle to watch. The new Hampton Downs facility is going to provide an ideal venue for a launch of a 'new' series. Aligning ourselves with our Aussie neighbours is an obvious way to go and having someone such as youself promoting the idea can only be a good thing. Good on ya for speaking up for the improvement of our sport.

[CHOPPA]

Im going to race an OZ round of the superstock series. Its not that expensive, prob about the same as racing a round of our nats in the SI.

If there were several people that wanted to go over and take there bikes it would be even easier!

Jimmy Mair can organise all the shipping etc and its really cheap.

The oz superstock rules are great, i set a K7 gixer thou up to hopefully be very competitive in that class for 10k using s/h parts and a insurance write off.....

[speedracerjimmy]

how much to send your bike there

[CHOPPA]

how much to send your bike there

Export documentation 91.00
EDI entry 16.00
Delivery from here to CFS 70.20 (no reason why you cant deliver the crate direct to the CFS and avoid this cost)

Ocean freight 140.40
BAF 51.48

Total up to CFS Brisbane about NZD300.00 to 370 + JImmy Fee

Then there would be a cost of the 'carnet' for the bike which is about $300 + refundable deposit. Bike will be there and clear to pick up in 10 days with Jimmy sorting it.

If you want to give R4 a crack in the Superstock 1000 class at eastern creek Jimmy your welcome to use my bike...

[Robert Taylor]

I believe they are looking at these types of changes.
I like the idea of a muffler, rear spring, fork oil and a fairing.
Someone could race a bike for a year then sell it as a stock bike without loosing a heap of money on cams, motor work, shocks, etc.
The winter series allows some stock bikes to get on to the track, but you wont see them at the nationals unless the rules are changed to make them competive.
I might even be tempted to give the 600 class ago.

Allowing changing of fork oil only is about as nonsensical as allowing only a spring change in the rear, when in fact there is often more benefit to be had from revalving the shock than changing the spring! ( Eh Andy, as you well know! )Most of the acceleration squat issues with stock shocks are down to very weak shim stack opening pressure and overspringing to band aid this is not the right way about going about it, other problems are created such as poor bump absorption that contributes to over-stressing the tyres. And in the front end very often the bikes are undersprung, think of how disadvantaged riders such as Nick Cole would be if they had to run the stock front springs!
Everyday we get ordinary everyday road riders and trackday riders asking us for suspension solutions, the shortcomings they experience ( most notably as stated above ) are somewhat magnified in road racing.
But ho hum, said all this before and many people only believe what they want to believe.
But, Andrew has on balance come up with some very good suggestions, he is the countries ''heaviest hitter'' in road racing and has been around a long time. That he is a current rider at the sharp end ( in this century! ) gives him a LOT of credibility.

[Mark Pav]

I seem to remember him being pretty quick last century as well..........

[Maarty]

Hi Everyone, Since it's my first post on here I hope I can get away with writting a noval.

My thoughts re, not enough bikes on the grid and some ideas that could encourage more participation in Superbikes / 600's?

Exactly what to do could depend on whether we are looking to attract more riders from within NZ or looking to attract more riders from outside NZ?

1). - If just NZ, then my thoughts would be to make it easier, cheaper and provide some more incentive to compete. Provide rules that both riders and distributors are happy with. I.e. Allowing bikes that riders want to ride which can be tuned at a reasonable cost, and if the distributors input is responsible for half the bikes on the grid (as per Superbike class) then they need to see that the rules will allow their bikes to be competitive. But also rules that do not require people to spend a fortune just because others are. (Personally, I believe that the time has finally come where the performance of the top sports bikes produced by the main manufactures has come to a level that would still allow for close racing even if the bikes were in a near standard form.)
From a riders perspective, I don't mind if the bike has 200hp or 180hp, as long as I wasn't at any disadvantage to others. If it costs an extra $30,000 each, for everyone to have 200hp instead of 180, then I'd expect the majority would pick the 180hp option.

2) To make it more attractive for riders from overseas to compete.
- Aline rules with similar classes overseas and invite overseas riders. I.e. NZ Superbike rules could be alined with Aus Superbikes and if there is to be a second racing class within the Superbike class then why not aline rules with Australia 1000cc Superstock ( standard motor, but allows suspension and exhaust system). Then invite Australian riders and even help organise a container to bring their gear over and back. (who wants a sideline job??). It wouldn't hurt to also promote the NZ series abroad and invite riders from American.. UK...Japan...Europe.. Etc. Our series can be at the perfect time of year for Northern hemisphere 'Racers' to gain more experience, ride on new tracks and get extra development time on their bikes, ....plus get a Summer holiday.......( any extra container space may be sellable to trackday fans.) Air tickets to Aus have never been cheaper
Current NZ Superbike rules are very close to Aus Superbike's. The main difference being, we can machine pistons. Why not start off by changing that one rule to be in line with Australia. This would help reduce preparation time and costs for NZ riders while making it an option to race your bike in Aus and for Aussies to race their bikes here. For this season we could allow the older model bikes to run with their already machined pistons but the new bikes / distributor bikes must have standard pistons. I'd expect the new models to still have an advantage anyway and it may inspire more privateers to compete on their bikes that aren't a new model.
.
Having a 1000cc Superstock kind of class (open Production) would lift the grid numbers and provide a cheaper way to race a 1000. Open Production riders could prove themselves by mixing it with as many Superbikes as they could.
This could also be proposed for the 600 class. i.e. Within the current class a more 'Production' class could line up with the Aus 600 Superstock rules i.e. Basically a muffler, rear spring, fork oil and a fairing.
Lap time wise, I'd estimate the Proddy bikes to be less than a second a lap slower, though if the Proddy riders are concerned about being lapped then we could go back to having three shorter races - say 10laps each(or 25km), one Sat arvo and two Sunday. Mark one set of tyres to be used for qualifying and race 1 then on Sunday mark another set of tyres to be used for race 2 and 3. .....??

The privateers cup idea seems ok though personally when I raced in the '06 Australian Superbike Championship I got points for the privateers cup, but really it didn't mean a lot to me. Riders seem to want to race for a National Championship title. If the Stock Production classes were given National Championship status then there would probably be more interest and more competitors enter.

Tyres;
I'd be just as happy using 2 sets of harder compound production tyres for a weekend as I would be using 4 or 5 sets of the softest compound slicks that we can get away with.
It would be great if a 'control tyre' could work here as it does in other championships ? If a NZ tyre distributor could sponsor the series and offer a deal to provide tyres to every rider for, say... $400 a set and then maybe offer a $200 buy back option then that would significantly reduce the cost of being competitive. ( Apparently the full retail for a rear Dunlop Slick can be near on $700!!! And if you want to be competitive you probably need to test 3 different compounds before qualifying even starts, just to see what compound is going to work best for the particular track and race distance!!!!) The treaded proddy tyres are so close to slicks now anyway but they are sellable to road guys when used. Gareth Jones used them as control tyres in the World Superstocks last year and said they worked really well.

In considering other ways to increase M/c racing profile and encourage more sponsor support could we re-look at joining one or two of the car meetings.
Sponsors could invite clients and put on hospitality in an action packed exciting atmosphere with lots of spectators.
V8 Nationals get good crowds and TV is already there. A1GP was open to including bikes in their Australian round so why not try for it here (if it's still happening). Timaru also worked well and Hampton Downs could be another good one to enquire about. Most car race spectators are pleasantly surprised and very impressed with the speed and dynamic racing that bikes can provide. Distributors also see their products displayed to another audience. Companies could be more likely to sponsor the race, (getting naming rights) which could go towards providing some reasonable prize money.
I know Motorsport NZ are pressed for time at there meetings so what about proposing Superbikes and 600's in the same race. (Gareth may be the only one with a problem trying to ride two bikes at once if they both carried national points.)
The lap times are close enough between 1000's and 600's and a grid of 35 bikes would be impressive.
Also, as there are already some motorcycle clubs discussing whether it is worth it for them to hold a National round then in ultilising a car meet this could provide an easier out for them.

Race Calendar;
In the past our last round has often been the only event to take place after the 1st round of the Australian Championship. That can put a spanner in the works for riders on both sides of the Tasman.
Can we communicate with Motorcycling Australia and coordinate it so our last round finished a couple of weeks before their first round starts.
Re meetings;
There seems to be good numbers turning up for winter series and club meetings, so there is the potential for many of these riders to contest the Nationals if it stacks up for them.
I understand that the 3 weeks away down the South Island can be too much $ and time away for some. We could look at making, say, Timaru a double header, where Wednesday or Thursday is official practice, Friday Qualifying, Saturday Rd? and Sunday the next round. Also this weekend could be the South Island round(s) that is Televised as the public have already seen lots of racing from Ruapuna but not from Levels. Teretonga is a great track and it would be a shame to leave it out though how many riders don't do the Nationals due to the expense, time off and distance to travel? Teretonga has the Burt Munroe Meeting for those who really need to race there.
Pukekohe could be left out as we heard that the Auckland Club is finding it hard to make it viable and besides that, really, it's too dangerous for a National round.
The series could finish Mid February with a Televised final round at Hampton Downs. A container could be at Hampton Downs ready to be loaded with bikes / gear to be delivered to Philip Island WSB for Round 1 of the Aussy Champs.

I hope you guys can help sort out any of the really practical ideas so we can put them forward asap.

Cheers,

Andrew

Are you planning on attending the MNZ road race workshop at the AGM Andrew?
Opinion of your calibre would be a great asset!

Regards

Marty

[Toot Toot]

And in the front end very often the bikes are undersprung, think of how disadvantaged riders such as Nick Cole would be if they had to run the stock front springs!

Well he should eat less pies then! Not going to form rules around one fat rider.

Welcome aboard Andrew, nice to have you here.

[cowpoos]

Well he should eat less pies then! Not going to form rules around one fat rider.

Welcome aboard Andrew, nice to have you here.

That would include riders like sloan frost,eddie aswell glenn...both of them in the 90kg + backet...and more aswell that I can't think of.

Good number of common sense ideas Andrew..I like the aligning classes with auz ideas and car race meets!!..I would hope you would be able to attend the agm. and put these ideas forward.

[Toot Toot]

That would include riders like sloan frost,eddie aswell glenn...both of them in the 90kg + backet...and more aswell that I can't think of.

Jeez, sounds like we need to start weight watchers classes before any new race classes.
You can start poo's, you might top the field for once.. bwa hah