School speed limits. What's your point of view?

[CookMySock]

If I am forced to accept responsibility for something then I also demand the right to manage that responsibility.

Yup. It is possible to care too much, and to feel overloaded by the inadequacy and grief that comes from not having enough influence to make a difference. I choose to let society go to hell in a handcart if they so wish - it's not my heart attack. People go maim themselves and others everyday, but its not me - I didn't do it, and I don't have to fix it. It is not that I do not feel for them - I feel for them enormously, and that has been a huge problem for me to get over, but I cannot change it, and there I must release my grip on it.

Too serious?

Steve

[Skyryder]

People go maim themselves and others everyday, but its not me - I didn't do it, and I don't have to fix it. It is not that I do not feel for them - I feel for them enormously, and that has been a huge problem for me to get over, but I cannot change it, and there I must release my grip on it.

Too serious?

Steve

Pure Zen.



Skyryder

[avgas]

both legs have a chance at breaking, the head will hit both the bonnet and the road surface and may crack the skull. A wrist will be damaged (or break) due to the child putting it out to defend itself.

I'm not saying its as bad as 50kph hit, im just saying EVERYTHING POSSIBLE needs to be done to prevent these instances. In this case - the parents needed to walk the damn kid across the road if they have a concern. But now they have no child - so no lesson can be learned here.

[Mully]

In my youf (I'm 28 for reference purposes), we had to do a thing at Primary School where we learnt and practised safety on and around roads (it was called something wanky like "Pedestrian Passport" or some such) with the local community copper and our teachers.

It included getting off buses, crossing roads with and without parked cars being there and so on (from memory, it even included meeting dogs on the footpath). If you passed, you got given your "Pedestrian Passport"

Does anyone with Sprogs know if the same or a similar thing is still done? Seems to be (given my lack of "getting-knocked-over-getting-off-bus") that it was effective.

[Beemer]

...Beemer. Your statement is indicative of a woman with no children.
I mean nothing by saying that, I thought similarly before children.

I suggest, "You'll" (Borrow's Ixions hypothetical 'you' guy) find most people without kids think this way, vs parents, who have spent 5 nights in a row getting up to sick kids or staying late with them when teething or cleaning up after tummy bugs, tend to have more of a community, and empathetic outlook on children and their safety.

It really does take a community to keep our children safe, always has, always will.

To assume something is not your problem, because it doesn't or won't affect "you" is blind. (borrows Ixions hypothetical you guy again)
Society on all levels, constantly reaps the consequences of that pattern of thinking...

Sorry, but this is a load of crap! I usually find that most parents, after spending five nights looking after a sick kid, are pretty unpleasant to be around! Having kids of your own does NOT make you Mother Theresa (hey, she didn't have kids either...) and it does not automatically make you a caring person. Look at NZ's appalling record of child abuse - the majority of it carried out by the child's parent or caregiver, not some adult without kids. If it takes a community to look after children, then we're pretty crap at it, aren't we?

I care about a lot of things, but I do not feel personally responsible for them. I treat others with respect and expect that in return. But I will not be held responsible for other people's actions.

[Genestho]

Beemer.
I, am not asking "you" to be responsible for other peoples children, but be responsible for "your" own actions, therefore caring about your community.

To slow down around a school bus, is to be responsible for "your" actions. Eh?

Yes, 5 nights with crook kids makes a woman unpleasant, but from this and other maternal hats worn, you gain the insight to think and care about somebody else, instead of only "yourself" for a change.

Is it possible to have the same amount of empathy being childless, who knows?
I've been in your shoes as a childless woman, but you have never walked mine, are you qualified to know the difference?
Again who knows. Not important.

Nobody has the right to tell you, how to think or act. That is up to "you"

Your points on child abuse are true, totally agree on that one.
We have one of the worst rates of parental induced child abuse, and incest, per capita in the world.

[Beemer]

Beemer.
I, am not asking "you" to be responsible for other peoples children, but be responsible for "your" own actions, therefore caring about your community.

To slow down around a school bus, is to be responsible for "your" actions. Eh?...

Is it possible to have the same amount of empathy being childless, who knows?
I've been in your shoes as a childless woman, but you have never walked mine, are you qualified to know the difference?
Again who knows. Not important...

I still say that slowing to 20kph from 100kph in either direction on the open road is asking for trouble and I think it's a stupid law. It was obviously designed to apply to school areas in 50kph zones and I think it needs reviewing. If a child can run across the road at any time and you think I should be driving with that thought in mind all the time, then you ARE asking me to be responsible for other people's children when they are obviously not taking that responsibility seriously themselves.

Is it possible to have the same amount of empathy being childless - of course it is! If you think it is not, then you are wrong.

No, I've never had kids - but I don't think that means my views are worth any less than yours - and to throw it back at you, are YOU qualified to know the difference?

"Again, who knows. Not important..." If it's not important, why raise it in the first place?

[CookMySock]

I agree it's dangerous to suddenly slow to 20k/hr on the open road. I would be checking my rear view every few seconds in such a scenario. In an emergency situation it would be a very hard call what or who to hit, and not much time to make a decision.

Regardless of differing opinion, we are all still on the same side, and it because we care that we debate it.

It's nearly beer time!

Steve

[Genestho]

I still say that slowing to 20kph from 100kph in either direction on the open road is asking for trouble and I think it's a stupid law. It was obviously designed to apply to school areas in 50kph zones and I think it needs reviewing.

Agreed, it does need reviewing.

If a child can run across the road at any time and you think I should be driving with that thought in mind all the time, then you ARE asking me to be responsible for other people's children when they are obviously not taking that responsibility seriously themselves.

Yep, that's right, children quite often don't take responsibility seriously themselves.
Look, I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, I can only wonder at why you allude slowing down, being a problem for you, knowing kids don't think the same as adults?

Is it possible to have the same amount of empathy being childless - of course it is! If you think it is not, then you are wrong.

No, I've never had kids - but I don't think that means my views are worth any less than yours - and to throw it back at you, are YOU qualified to know the difference?

At no point have I indicated your view is not important. Everyone has an opinion and the right to use it. As you will know, if we all thought the same, it'd be a very boring world.

What qualifies me to know the difference is this line I wrote:
I've been in your shoes as a childless woman, but you have never walked mine
What I mean't by that, is I understand the difference of not having children,
and how unintentionally self absorbed vs the total opposite when raising children, some people say having kids makes them a better person because of the difference in lifestyles

"Again, who knows. Not important..." If it's not important, why raise it in the first place?
An exercise of illustrating a difference and possibly reasoning, of your viewpoint, unimportant to the thread topic itself.
I have noticed people without children, seem to appear less tolerable of kids downfalls, vs parents.

Dude, please don't take my observation personally, that's not what I had intended, and I apologise if you have.

[AD345]

No, I would not, if only the drunk were involved. The drunk makes his own decisions. He must live with the consequences.

And how, pray tell, do you ascertain that only the drunk will be involved?

....never mind.

We go on:

If those were certain (not merely lilely, who am I to judge) to endanger others, then yes I would take his keys. And then I most certainly would demand the right to tell him how to live his life. If I am forced to accept responsibility for something then I also demand the right to manage that responsibility.

If you feel that this responsibility is something that can only accept if it is forced upon you it explains much.

...(a lot of other stuff in the same vein demanding rights by dint of excercising adult responsibility.)

We fundamentally disagree on the roles of adults in a community and broader aspects of responsibility. You see responsibility as an imposition that must be leavened with accompanying authority, where I view it as a basic compact to living in a civilised society.

You explicitly accept no responsibility towards children of others because you disagree with the way they are raised and, as you have no right to have all children raised according to your views, they must all fend for themselves.

By definition it would seem you then live in a community of one, but nonetheless choose to interact with my community of many.

The door is straight ahead - don't let it hit you on the arse.

[Beemer]

Dude, please don't take my observation personally, that's not what I had intended, and I apologise if you have.

As Steve said, it's good we're debating this and a lot of us have similar views even if expressed differently!

My comment about being "responsible for other people's children when they are obviously not taking that responsibility seriously themselves" was aimed at the parents - I totally realise kids don't always understand the consequences of their actions. Mom posted that she used to walk across to the other side of the road with her young child and then teach them about crossing the road safely on the way back. THAT is the kind of responsibility parents should be showing. If a child can't think for themselves or doesn't have the same thought pattern as an adult, then it should be the parents' responsibility to look after that child until they are independent thinkers and can be trusted to make the right decision (although that is not guaranteed).

We will have to agree to disagree on some things though - it's not just the childless who are intolerant of children and their failings! Some of us are in fact more tolerant because we don't have to deal with it 24/7!

I like the fact this thread hasn't deteriorated into a shit-fight and red rep isn't being dished out for differing opinions.

[bull]

I like the fact this thread hasn't deteriorated into a shit-fight and red rep isn't being dished out for differing opinions.

Too true, from peoples feedback i have learnt that the 20km/h applies to both sides of the traffic flow (something i have never noticed in action), and on top of this it has highlighted that there are people out there who think that parents need to do a better job of teaching their own kids some responsibility.

I have three boys 12, 9 and 7 and i still hold the younger boys hands when crossing roads and keep on reminding them about checking left and right, this is how i was taught from my parents and no doubt my kids, kids will learn in the same way.

I understand the peoples thoughts of if you have children you are responsible to teach them - im of the thought that if i look after my family and everyone else looks after theirs then the world would be a better place. Unfortunately too many families out there dont seem to put as much effort in as they should, and thus I can see why we may need to step in and offer some good safe advice if a member of our community (kids and adults) are in need.

The 20km/h rule does seem to be specifically targetted for a 50km/h zone and something needs to be done to make the bus stop areas in the 100km/h zones safer for the motorists (slowing to 20km on a 100km/h is a risk in itself). Simply having a parent to pick up the kid on the same side of the dropoff would take care of this but that would be common sense and that unfortunately is what so many let go of in the rush of life (rain, bad day, in a hurry).

Thank you to all whom contributed to the thread it has been a very educational read for me.

[Shadows]

Schools are only busy for half an hour each end of the day.

Kids are impulsive and can move pretty quickly.

Slow the fuck down past schools and school buses at those times. Simple.



Oh yes, and if you need to read the "School Bus" sign on the back of a fucking great bus parked outside a school to realise it is, in fact, a school bus, then you should have your license revoked for being a stupid cunt.

[Beemer]

Schools are only busy for half an hour each end of the day.

Kids are impulsive and can move pretty quickly.

Slow the fuck down past schools and school buses at those times. Simple.

Oh yes, and if you need to read the "School Bus" sign on the back of a fucking great bus parked outside a school to realise it is, in fact, a school bus, then you should have your license revoked for being a stupid cunt.

Have to disagree there - school buses are often used outside of school start and finish times to transport kids to sporting and cultural events so they could be there at any time of the day.

The problem with school buses is that they are not just found near schools and that is the point I have been trying to make - there is one place they stop on the Opiki Road that is about 50m past a blind corner - and the corner is rated 85kph so I can imagine the carnage if the front car in peak traffic in the morning suddenly braked to 20kph. There is no way the cars behind would have any warning and once they came around the corner they wouldn't even have 100m of clear road in which to stop.

There are house buses, school buses, air force and army buses, coach buses, etc on the roads during the day and those school signs aren't exactly flashing neon so while it may be obvious it's a school bus if it's parked outside a school, if you are in a line of traffic doing 100kph, that's another matter.

[Genestho]

No, I would not, if only the drunk were involved. The drunk makes his own decisions. He must live with the consequences.

*Coughs* Believes I live in the world of daily and real consequences, a drunk drivers decision - or lack of, have caused mine and other families.
I'm sure you didn't mean that innocents are never involved.


Beemer.
Opiki eh? Used to live not far myself, a LONG time ago!

I see what you're saying in that instance. I wonder if there was a sign prior to these types of dropoff zones - to warn traffic to slow down for buses in 100km areas?
(Has that already been said?)
Personally - I'm just not sure how NOT slowing around a School bus, quite big and usually clearly signed, can really be justified, but I do see what you're saying!

I agree to the picking up of the children from buses.

If I can get my boy to the bus on time (HAH! Yeah right.) he gets helped up the steps, and I'll pick him up from his side of the road. He's got the message well drummed in, but I, knowing him well, don't trust his ability to cross safely on his own.

At 12 you'd think the chances of this would be minimised, but, obviously not.

Like I said kid's are NOW species.
Better "What If" then "What could've been done to prevent this"
Good Thread, I feel educated even if opinions differ, it's been said already, at least everyone who's posted gives a damn in some way