Porkgate

[ManDownUnder]

Psssh, sucks being the niggers at the bottom of the food chain...

A bit of education will do you the world of good... it's not so bad

As with most things, exploitation of the planet, gobbling up natural resources, treating stock like crap, etc etc, the real problem is over population.

Bingo!

[MSTRS:Me]

This thread makes me want roast pork with crispy roast potatoes and crackling.

Swweeeeeeeeeeeeet.

What's the point of being top of the food chain and eating vegetables?

More to the point, what's the point of having an omnivore's teeth/jaw structure, coupled with the appropriate digestive system and not using it all?
That's not to say we have a 'right' to mistreat animals, however. On the surface, sow crates appear cruel. And probably are. Farmers do not do anything without there being a sound commercial reason. My jury is out on this subject.

[Madness]

the real problem is over population.

Perhaps this is the answer then?.

[scracha]

If you take license to "hurl abuse" at fellow society on that basis, then you are very little different from the animals in question.

Take a look around yourself, and step outside of your own opinion. We are all people with feelings and families, just like you, so slow down a bit and take a look at the bigger picture.

Steve

Your right DB. God forbid we upset someone who supports mistreating animals. I'll give a pat on the back to the next farmer I spot who's starving their cows.

The real problem is overbreeding...and I don't mean the animals.

[Phurrball]

Thanks for your post Hitcher, while I disagree strongly on many of the points, I appreciate your perspective and that you have thought it out.

Here's this morning's Morning Report interview with a spokesperson for MAF inspectors that investigated the controversial farm. Unsurprisingly, it's all legal and perfectly OK.

Animal welfare matters aside, this whole discussion is an indulgence for the affluent, well fed, urbanised, middle class, western world.

While you have a point, I beg to differ. It's ALL about animal welfare. (I wish it were about rights, but all animals get is welfare. A gulf exists between the two)

'Blinkered' persons are now aware (and outraged by) practices that are PERFECTLY LEGAL - even though it breaches numerous parts of the AWA. The law says you can treat pigs worse than other animals. Why? It is morally and logically inexcusable.

The developed world's consumers demand affordable, tasty, nutritious, convenient and safe food. And that is what they get.

Do we demand it, or are we given it by the marketers and TOLD we demand it? At what cost to the planet and our own health?

Unlike the aforementioned impoverished WE HAVE THE CHOICE. Just how safe is our food? A lot less safe than many would think. An excellent fringe benefit of vegetarianism is label reading. It's mighty disturbing what is in pre-prepared food - be it astronomical levels of sodium and sugar (cheap way to boost flavour), colourings that are banned in many countries, or sneaky animal products. [Bloody hard to find yoghurt without gelatine]

If they are prepared to pay more to asuage their "consciences" about the food they're eating, that's fine. I'm sure there will be food producers who will capitalise on that market opportunity.

Back to the original point - even the pork industry has said they are moving away from the crates. Sometimes the law has to force change and move slightly ahead of public (or in this case, industry) opinion [It's clear where public opinion lies once a 'hidden' practice comes to light].

In this case, the code that allows a deliberate breach of the standards specifically for pigs is a hang-over from outmoded practices allowed by the influence of the pork lobby on NAWAC (Who don't do much for animals at all...it's all about human convenience)

But lets consider for one moment food production on a global scale.

While we with our full stomachs are getting in a lather about whether sows are caged for farrowing, several billion other humans on this planet have no idea where their next meal is coming from and aren't going to have their consciences troubled about the origins of that food if it ever arrives.

Answered above. A valid point, but I think it's a side issue in this case.

Despite my current employment, I am an agriculturalist. That's how I was brought up, that's how I was trained, and that's how I paid my mortgage for a while. As an agriculturalist I struggle with many of the arguments I hear put forward on an almost daily basis by folks who are distressed about various aspects of how their food is produced and what they think it contains. Many of their fears are groundless and based on what's currently fashionable. I dispair.

Fair enough, thanks for the backgrounder. I'm aware of where meat comes from, and the disturbing way in which some of it is produced. I avoid it at all costs. Some choose not to avoid it. Some might well avoid meat (or some meat) if they KNEW how it was produced.

The great irony here is the number of 'red-blooded' meat eaters tucking into sausages full of soy. Those same that would mock tofu and the 'sandal wearers' that partake.

Politics aside, the world can be adequately fed. I believe that we have all of the technology and systems available to do this in an environmentally sustainable manner. Unfortunately for those who are religiously agin them, "factory farming" and genetically modified products are an essential element of such an objective.

I agree to some extent. It is much more efficient in environmental and energy terms to feed the world on a vegetarian (or predominantly vegetarian) diet. I don't think you'll argue that more people can be fed for a given area of land on plant-based food, than on animal protein.

[Yes, I know, it's not that simple as not all land is arable, and people will continue to eat meat. The main issue is WHAT meat we eat, and in NZ, HOW MUCH meat we eat.]

A logical consequence of the food production systems propounded by "green" activists is local subsistence farming. Environmentally such practices are a disaster.

Really? Perhaps this is true to some extent. Organics does not abandon crops to the ravages of pests and weeds. Strategies like Bacillus thuringiensis toxins for pest control etc enable organics to work quite well.

Surely being able to grow more low cost, high quality food, with fewer inputs such as pesticides and fertiliser, in areas where water is plentiful is a good thing? Wouldn't it be great if the vast acreages around the world that are marginal or worse for food production could be allowed to revert to their natural state and retired as national parks, enhancing biodiversity and other environmental benefits?

Quite. I'm sure one day we'll be growing steak in a 'petri dish'. That day isn't here, and I still wouldn't eat it, even though I'd have no moral objection.

The 40-Hour Famine will be along in a while. I guess those who are exercising "choice" about their pork products can then take the opportunity to salve their global famine consciences by sponsoring some high school kid to live on barley sugars and fruit juice for a weekend.

"Choice" is moot in an environment where the products available are shaped by regulation and obfuscation on the part of producers. Consumers are not happy with what they see now. They don't like the lack of openness and information.

Pushed for time, got to go...sorry for any 'grammar fail'

[Lias]

To me animals exist only as a renewable natural resource. I'm as much worried about whether my bacon suffered as I am if my potato suffered. I find the entire concept of animal rights baffling, what next will we have tree rights? I personally do not subscribe to the theory that animals are sentient, but even if they are, it matters not, because we are the superior species and they are in no position to challenge us. To the victor the spoils go, and we won the evolutionary war.

Now I'm off to ask my local butcher if his pork comes from caged animals, and it had bloody well better be if he wants my business!

[Beemer]

I never gave any thought to where my animal-based food came from and how it was treated during its life until people like Jamie Oliver and Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall started protesting about it. I am an animal lover and I was appalled at the treatment of cage hens and pigs and haven't bought anything other than free range since I became aware of this.

I'm not rich but I choose to spend more on buying free range products so that at least I am not contributing to this system.

Yes, I suppose I'm a hypocrite in that I like meat and won't stop eating it, but at least what I eat has the chance to experience sunshine and fresh air and has the room to move and behave in a more natural manner.

However, I have never liked SAFE's methods and imagine the pigs WOULD have been stressed at being woken up at 2am. I don't condone the way these pigs are farmed, but the law needs to be changed before they can target the farmers because they appear to be acting within the law.

[Finn]

I find the entire concept of animal rights baffling, what next will we have tree rights?

Ever tried to cut one down, especially those South American native to NZ Powhootacarwus?

[NJ83]

The Close Up story could hardly be described as balanced.

Many commercial pig farmers in New Zealand use farrowing stalls. Pigs are carnivorous cannibals. The frames are designed to stop sows either rolling on top of and crushing their young or eating them. The cages minimise piglet death and enhance their wellbeing. In many cases the sow only stays in the cage until the piglets are weaned.

As for the squealing, anybody who has ever been into a commercial piggery generally knows that pigs often associate the presence of humans with food. Once one starts squealing, they all start. It's deafening and only stops once the last pig starts eating.

Chewing at the bars demonstrating psychological trauma or distress? Pigs are inveterate gnawrers. The will chew at most things they encounter. Chewing causes salivation (foaming). If you think that's bad you should see the extent of foam at mating time.

That said, there are some commercial pig farmers whose animal husbandry practices leave much to be desired. That does not unilaterally make farrowing stalls a bad thing.

SAFE is run by political vegans. Any of their claims need to be taken with several grains of salt as their aim is to sensationalise.

As for current affairs programmes, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIUOD...eature=related

+1, exactly right Hitcher

[imdying]

Ever tried to cut one down, especially those South American native to NZ Powhootacarwus?

Yeah, not sure what you're getting at though, was easy enough... If you have any more trouble, I'll lend you my chainsaw, it's plenty big enough for those

[Skyryder]

To me animals exist only as a renewable natural resource. I'm as much worried about whether my bacon suffered as I am if my potato suffered. I find the entire concept of animal rights baffling, what next will we have tree rights? I personally do not subscribe to the theory that animals are sentient, but even if they are, it matters not, because we are the superior species and they are in no position to challenge us. To the victor the spoils go, and we won the evolutionary war.

http://www.aapn.org/fooddogs.html

These are extreeme photos taken from the above link. I'm not involved in animal rights but I will take my hat off to anybody who improves the lot of man or beast.


Skyryder

[Lias]

http://www.aapn.org/fooddogs.html

These are extreeme photos taken from the above link. I'm not involved in animal rights but I will take my hat off to anybody who improves the lot of man or beast.


Skyryder

Jokes about chinese takeaways aside, I wouldnt mind trying cat/dog meat, just to see what its like.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I find the best way to improve crackling is to fairly liberally salt the fat before roasting.

[oldrider]

Jokes about chinese takeaways aside, I wouldnt mind trying cat/dog meat, just to see what its like.

My hearing is not that good these days but I swear I overheard a cat and a dog discussing "what human flesh tastes like" while walking home from the pub just the other night.

I thew a stick at the cheeky cunts!

[gatch]

To be perfectly honest I just don't give a fuck how they are treated. Really, couldn't care less.

There is so many much worse things going on in the world that noone loses sleep over, but because this is now in the media spot light it turns friends against friends because all of a sudden your a cruel malicious cunt, with no morals.

Hows this then, I'll cry a river for these pigs and SAFE can build the bridge..