Race tyre heat cycles

[Robert Taylor]

There are waaaaay too many people here...and in road racing in general...that think they need warmers...Ohlins...pit boards and sponsors to go fast.

Fuck off.

Heck that puts Mike Webb off your christmas card list then. As his bike tuner during his years on TZ250s in NZ I can attest to the fact that he was using Ohlins rear shocks and we built some huge pitboards for him. He was also at one time sponsored by Mens Warehouse, a clothing company. His preparation was also impeccable.
With all respect to Mike he wasnt naturally talented but worked really hard at it, had good machinery and aftermarket parts and worked also at attracting sponsors. That is so detestable!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( It might pay to be a little more in command of the facts or at least pick an example of a very talented rider on very average machinery )

[Crasherfromwayback]

Heck that puts Mike Webb off your christmas card list then. As his bike tuner during his years on TZ250s in NZ I can attest to the fact that he was using Ohlins rear shocks and we built some huge pitboards for him. He was also at one time sponsored by Mens Warehouse, a clothing company. His preparation was also impeccable.
With all respect to Mike he wasnt naturally talented but worked really hard at it, had good machinery and aftermarket parts and worked also at attracting sponsors. That is so detestable!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( It might pay to be a little more in command of the facts or at least pick an example of a very talented rider on very average machinery )

Ummmm....errrr...right. Think you've missed the message Robert. When I said Mike was racing (and winning NZ championships WITHOUT TYRE WARMERS)...He was. The post regarding others thinking they need tyre warmers...pit boards and sponsorship I can't recall saying Mike didn't have or use those. I could be wrong...but I can't be arsed to go back and check. I'm sure you'll quote me if that's what I said.

So then..the tyre warmer debate. '05' wasn't THAT long ago was it? So I'm not decades or generations out of touch. But in '05' I was able to run at the front in a motard race (Wanganui) against bikes with half as much again engine as I had without tyre warmers. So I can back up my argument with fact. Had a stock shock in there too. Think the reason I ended up eating hospital food for five days was that I forgot my fucking pit board.

[Robert Taylor]

Ummmm....errrr...right. Think you've missed the message Robert. When I said Mike was racing (and winning NZ championships WITHOUT TYRE WARMERS)...He was. The post regarding others thinking they need tyre warmers...pit boards and sponsorship I can't recall saying Mike didn't have or use those. I could be wrong...but I can't be arsed to go back and check. I'm sure you'll quote me if that's what I said.

So then..the tyre warmer debate. '05' wasn't THAT long ago was it? So I'm not decades or generations out of touch. But in '05' I was able to run at the front in a motard race (Wanganui) against bikes with half as much again engine as I had without tyre warmers. So I can back up my argument with fact. Had a stock shock in there too. Think the reason I ended up eating hospital food for five days was that I forgot my fucking pit board.

No I understand the message and its intent perfectly.
You have ( thankyou ) now quoted your own example of a talented rider being able to run at the front without ''aids'' on a stock bike. Imagine if there was a rider of exactly the same talent as you on that same day with the same bike but he had further ''aids''. I.e tyre warmers, pit board and very well sorted suspension ( not neccessarily Ohlins ). Id lay money on whod be at the front. Funnily enough a ''everything should be stock'' guy from MNZ delighted in telling me that a certain European rider was able to run at the front in the first 250 race at last years Taupo MX international, he crashed too and ended up in hospital.
Tyre warmers have often been academic at Wanganui because of the often extended time you are left languishing at the dummy grid, unless you are prepared to cart up stands, warmers and generators.

[R1madness]

For the people that like to use race comp tires on the street.

I have been usin Pirelli and Dunlop ex race tyres on my road bikes for years. They work just fine and dont suffer the "heat cycle" problems that most people seem to be hung up about. In fact on the street it is hard to get them up to full temp unless you are going mental. I get about 3500km from a rear and more from a front but i change them as a pair (because thats how i buy them). You need to keep them at the correct pressures (softer than you think) to get the best out of them but they feel a little vague when cold. They are ok in the wet as long as you have a smooth riding style. I have even ridden home from the BRASS MONKEY RALLY in the SNOW 2 up on a set o super corsas on my old R1. It was ok even tho they closed the road while we were on it....
They dont really work out cheaper than good new road tyres (in terms of $ pre km) but the confidence level they provide when pumping along your fav road is fantastic.
Negative points to remember are
They are more prone to puntures. You really need to keep an eye on the pressures. The last 2 mm of tread will disapear without warning. They feel funny when cold.

Hand cut slicks are a different story......

[svr]

For the people that like to use race comp tires on the street.

They dont really work out cheaper than good new road tyres (in terms of $ pre km) but the confidence level they provide when pumping along your fav road is fantastic.
Negative points to remember are
They are more prone to puntures. You really need to keep an eye on the pressures. The last 2 mm of tread will disapear without warning. They feel funny when cold.

Hand cut slicks are a different story......

Race tyres on the road - why would you use them?
You're right in saying that in the dry they aren't terrible (although you have to be mindful of their temperatures). But they are crap with standing water.
On the road you'd be much better off with sporting road tyres that would be operating within their design parameters.

[TonyB]

That's a pretty good plan really
The winter stuff can be kinda tough on real sticky tyres, so picking something a bit more road orientated, and a bit more flexible for the cold times makes good sense. They would tend to give more predictable behavior, more resistance to tearing, and quicker warmup on a cold track.
Then you could go for the stickier stuff when summer comes back

It all sounds logical to me. Lets hope its right because I just fitted a set of sticky road tyres to my race bike. Paying retail for tyres is....painful. I ended up chosing the tyre based on recomendations from people I trust, and comments I have heard from people about how well they grip in the cold and wet. I got pilot Powers- 2CT dual compound for the front and a standard one for the back because there wasn't an option.

I also went back to the 4.5 inch rear wheel and a 160/60 tyre (which is why I couldn't get the 2CT). This is standard for my bike. I had fitted a 5.5" wheel so I could use second hand 180/55's. One possible downside of changing back is that the radius to the outside of the Michellin 160/60 is about 8mm less than the Pirrelli 180/55- so my gearing will now be lower and the rear of the bike will be 8mm lower.....knowing me I wont even notice

Anyone wondering why the hell I did this...I hope I'm right. Just remember I use one set of tyres in ALL situations. With some of the all day winter race meetings here, it can be pretty cold for practice and the first race- it was 2°C for practice at one meeting I did last year. A couple of weeks ago a days racing was held in pouring rain and sleet with the temp never bettering 4°C. I don't think any of the tyre manufacturers are designing race rubber for situations like that...

[R1madness]

But they are crap with standing water.
.

actually they are quite good in the wet. Several of the top racers have used a treaded tire on a damp to wet track with great sucess when a wet would be chewed up and a slick too greasy.

[svr]

actually they are quite good in the wet. Several of the top racers have used a treaded tire on a damp to wet track with great sucess when a wet would be chewed up and a slick too greasy.

Thanks for the correction!

[Robert Taylor]

It all sounds logical to me. Lets hope its right because I just fitted a set of sticky road tyres to my race bike. Paying retail for tyres is....painful. I ended up chosing the tyre based on recomendations from people I trust, and comments I have heard from people about how well they grip in the cold and wet. I got pilot Powers- 2CT dual compound for the front and a standard one for the back because there wasn't an option.

I also went back to the 4.5 inch rear wheel and a 160/60 tyre (which is why I couldn't get the 2CT). This is standard for my bike. I had fitted a 5.5" wheel so I could use second hand 180/55's. One possible downside of changing back is that the radius to the outside of the Michellin 160/60 is about 8mm less than the Pirrelli 180/55- so my gearing will now be lower and the rear of the bike will be 8mm lower.....knowing me I wont even notice

Anyone wondering why the hell I did this...I hope I'm right. Just remember I use one set of tyres in ALL situations. With some of the all day winter race meetings here, it can be pretty cold for practice and the first race- it was 2°C for practice at one meeting I did last year. A couple of weeks ago a days racing was held in pouring rain and sleet with the temp never bettering 4°C. I don't think any of the tyre manufacturers are designing race rubber for situations like that...

The fact we race in such temperatures is something I am painfully aware of and its probably a fair assumption to make that we more often race in colder temps than in Europe and North America. Their winters are of course relatively fierce so they just shut down over the winter months.
So we experience more cold shear issues and some of the solutions are in fact counterintuitive. Like for example firmer springing and damping calibration to ''walk'' the tyres more to generate heat. Along with harder compound tyres.

[TonyB]

I'm Hijacking the thread again....
well its early days yet, but I did the first race meeting on the street tyres today. (As an aside, after 3 months off following a decent crash I was nervous as all hell...)

Anyway, so far I'm pretty stoked with my humble Pilot Powers. We were racing on the Ruapuna B track (1.3km I think), it got to 8°C and was overcast and dry. If the tyres were still very slightly warm before heading out (maybe 20°C), I was happy to get my knee down during the warmup lap. I have never done that with race tyres unless they were off the warmers.

They only slid a couple of times, but when they did it was very easy to deal with. I honestly thought there was more grip available than I used to get in similar situations with Pirrelli race tyres. So far so good!