Settling Maori claims. Someone explain.

[Winston001]

It's been insightful but not in the way I'd expected. It does seem that 'settlement' (whatever that is taken to mean) is like an open sore. If nothing else, at least the Kiwis seem to handle the matter with a measure of openness and honesty absent from similar discussions in some countries I can think of.

I'm curious that "an open sore" is the impression you get although there are plenty of negative comments here. By the way, good discussion and thanks for starting it.

My own impression is that in NZ the treaty settlement process has become a background issue. Most people don't think about it anymore and that is at least partly because the actual settlements don't harm the general population.

In fact in some cases, iwi have given land back or created a public reserve. Its the recognition of wrong they needed, not wealth and power.

John makes a very strong point that Maori were not and are not a united group. They squabble and scrap just like the scottish clans and for that reason alone, true settlement may be a long way off.

[Winston001]

Many people want to know when this will all end. Is there a final point. Personally I think not soon.

There is a "treaty grievance industry". Some people think its just about money but thats not it. The few activists (including white liberals) I know of have no wealth at all.

However since the late 1970s, is a whole maori renaissance has arisen. Places like Waikato University are a hotbed of activism. The people who emerge are young, educated, passionate, filled with a sense of righting wrongs. The Waitangi Tribunal and the Maori Party gives them a focus for their energy.

That's produced a generation of people who rely on the settlement process to give meaning to their lives. For them to be told the Waitangi Tribunal will cease in say, 2015, would be a blow to their ego and life purpose.

Maybe the Tribunal will have to shift to settling maori disputes like the Maori Land Court has done already for generations. For example, urban maori who do not belong to an iwi miss out at the moment.

[jono035]

Some of the recent turns made by the Maori party are unfortunate (separate court system and unlimited university entrance for instance) as they had some very interesting and progressive ideas earlier on.

I know a lot of people who have gone through university and feel as though they got a raw deal because they fell through cracks a little. Parents making just enough money for them to get student allowance, but not enough to be able to help out with their university costs. People watching the Maori and Pacific Island students getting full scholarships (including some students who were 1/16th Maori for instance) and feeling like they are being subjected to racism in the reverse sense. None of this is good for the cause of 'equality' at all.

Personally I see the problems and definitely think that something needs to be done to try raise the general education level (and thus have less people in prisons) especially with respect to the Maori/Pacific Islander populace, but have absolutely no idea how.

[Molly]

Personally I see the problems and definitely think that something needs to be done to try raise the general education level (and thus have less people in prisons) especially with respect to the Maori/Pacific Islander populace, but have absolutely no idea how.

It can be hard to motivate any student and free access to Uni. won't help with that endeavour. It could easily lead to less well educated young people since they'd no longer have to really try. I have students that constantly rock up late to class. When I ask them: "What time do you call this?" they sometimes reply: "Island time..."

[Genestho]

..... By the way, good discussion and thanks for starting it.....

Interesting discussion indeed, quite often KB challenges my thinking and as always, never fails to educate me, and never in the way I expect it will!

But as posted earlier there is never a conclusion to a KB debate.

Good exercise though

Thanks Winston (as always!!) for your contribution of unbiased facts.

Perceptions, ideas and opinions can often be taken as provocative, but healthy debate is always, and will always be good thing!

Unfortunately when you read this thread, it's fairly obvious that taking views or opinions onboard, personally inhibit healthy debate!

That said, this was an interesting read! Cheers!

[jono035]

It can be hard to motivate any student and free access to Uni. won't help with that endeavour. It could easily lead to less well educated young people since they'd no longer have to really try. I have students that constantly rock up late to class. When I ask them: "What time do you call this?" they sometimes reply: "Island time..."

Yeah, I haven't really heard any methods that I agree with yet, I only know what the ultimate outcome needs to be. That's the easy part!

[Winston001]

Unfortunately when you read this thread, it's fairly obvious that taking views or opinions onboard, personally inhibit healthy debate!

The challenge in any discussion is to try and remove emotional words. For example here, the words "racist" and "redneck" are red flags which makes people angry - and fair enough too.

We should be able to criticise Maori without being immediately labelled with such flagrantly abusive terms. Not everything Maori is good or right.

I do think we can change peoples minds if arguments are explained quietly. Homosexual law reform is an example of change which was incomprehensible when I was a lad. (Still is....)

[peasea]

I've been ratting through the 'celticnz' site and 'onenzfoundation' site as well as various sites pertaining to pre-Maori NZ and the Treaty of Waitangi etc.

Forget emotive/racist bollocks and ask yourself why so much of this stuff is suppressed. Why do successive governments prefer you to not be informed about what has become to be known as "The Littlewood Treaty". This is the genuine article, yet it is hardly in the spotlight.

Why do many iwi prevent carbon dating of ancient bones? Why does DOC bulldoze over ancient burial sites etc? Why have early history books that taught of pre-Maori settlements been removed from schools?

It takes quite a while to sift through what is on the above websites but the information opens the eyes to a different perspective/theory on our history.

It was Hobson who first coined the phrase "We are now one nation" and no matter how often you repeat it the fact remains that NZ is deeply divided.

Damned shame I reckon, I love this place and we do well in so many things. Imagine what a unified country could do!

[oldrider]

Not really on topic but may be of interest to people reading in this thread.

Quite some time ago I stopped to do something to my bike at Queenstown (Frankton) and sheltered in a small bus stop for a while.

Written in bold letters on the wall in paint was the following:

Aotearoa-"Land of the wrong white crowd".

I couldn't get over how much that comment affected me, it really pissed me off.

I still feel a bit pissed when I think about it, don't know why, just do.

Have to admit it is quite a good play on words though.

[wbks]

I've been ratting through the 'celticnz' site and 'onenzfoundation' site as well as various sites pertaining to pre-Maori NZ and the Treaty of Waitangi etc.

Forget emotive/racist bollocks and ask yourself why so much of this stuff is suppressed. Why do successive governments prefer you to not be informed about what has become to be known as "The Littlewood Treaty". This is the genuine article, yet it is hardly in the spotlight.

Why do many iwi prevent carbon dating of ancient bones? Why does DOC bulldoze over ancient burial sites etc? Why have early history books that taught of pre-Maori settlements been removed from schools?

It takes quite a while to sift through what is on the above websites but the information opens the eyes to a different perspective/theory on our history.

It was Hobson who first coined the phrase "We are now one nation" and no matter how often you repeat it the fact remains that NZ is deeply divided.

Damned shame I reckon, I love this place and we do well in so many things. Imagine what a unified country could do!

I did a google search of "the Littlewood treaty", and assuming that it's not fake, that seems pretty astonishing that it hasn't even been investigated even though it is clearly making some bold claims. I wouldn't believe so much about pre-maori NZ, though... Radiocarbon dating was very inaccurate last time I checked, and a site that is called "celtic NZ" seems a little biased.

[Genestho]

The challenge in any discussion is to try and remove emotional words. ......yep, I've learn't emotion has no place in a good debate!I do think we can change peoples minds if arguments are explained quietly. Homosexual law reform is an example of change which was incomprehensible when I was a lad. (Still is....)

Phoaaarrr, you're getting controversial now squire!!!!! hehe..
Is that a new provocative thread I smell cooking?

[Bonez]

I did a google search of "the Littlewood treaty", and assuming that it's not fake, that seems pretty astonishing that it hasn't even been investigated even though it is clearly making some bold claims. I wouldn't believe so much about pre-maori NZ, though... Radiocarbon dating was very inaccurate last time I checked, and a site that is called "celtic NZ" seems a little biased.

This is an interesting read

http://www.onenzfoundation.co.nz/Rats.htm

Especialy the bit about blondies and redheads.

[Mr Merde]

http://www.zealand.org.nz/history.htm

Try this site.

Go in with an open mind and just read the Radical History.

So many questions unanswered, so many coincedental facts.

[peasea]

http://www.zealand.org.nz/history.htm

Try this site.

Go in with an open mind and just read the Radical History.

So many questions unanswered, so many coincedental facts.

Yes, my point exactly. Keep an open mind, so many people appear not to do so.

[peasea]

I did a google search of "the Littlewood treaty", and assuming that it's not fake, that seems pretty astonishing that it hasn't even been investigated even though it is clearly making some bold claims. I wouldn't believe so much about pre-maori NZ, though... Radiocarbon dating was very inaccurate last time I checked, and a site that is called "celtic NZ" seems a little biased.

Just as some maori sites are a "little biased" I would imagine.

I just want the facts put in the public arena, whether they prove Maori to have been the first here, the Chinese or Martians. I am simply curious as to the history of NZ and why so much is kept from public eyes. Who's hiding what and why?