Mass medication - our daily bread

[Badjelly]

To my knowledge there isn't a natural equivalent to human error. Mother nature has had a lot longer time to get things perfected, even with humans now doing their best to fcuk it up

You think Mother Nature works to perfect the world for human beings?

[Naki Rat]

You think Mother Nature works to perfect the world for human beings?

We're one of millions of different lifeforms on this planet. Why would she be doing it just for us?

[Badjelly]

You think Mother Nature works to perfect the world for human beings?

We're one of millions of different lifeforms on this planet. Why would she be doing it just for us?

Exactly. So why should the balance of nutrients in any particular food be perfect for us? Some of the foods we eat (e.g. most fruit) are produced by organisms that want(*) us to eat them, some (e.g. most vegetables) are produced by organisms that don't want us to eat them, some (e.g. meat) are produced by animals that run away and have to be caught before we can eat them. We're omnivores and eat a range of foods, seeking out the ones that have things we need and avoiding or treating the poisonous ones. Our ancestors have got by for the last few billion years, except for the ones that didn't. Where does the idea of natural = good come out of that?

(*) I'm using the word "want" very loosely here, obviously. Natural selection leads plants to produce edible fruit to spread their seeds.

Example: willow bark contains a compound called salicylic acid that relieves pain when consumed by humans. Unfortunately it hurts your stomach, so a scientist whose name I've forgotten developed a form called acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin) that's somewhat easier on your stomach. Some people think willow bark is better than aspirin because it's natural. Perhaps they think willow trees produce salicyclic acid for the benefit of humans and it's been perfected for that purpose. I don't. I think it's an accident, that there's no reason to expect the natural form to be better and good reason to believe it's worse and I prefer the synthetic form.

[Naki Rat]

Exactly. So why should the balance of nutrients in any particular food be perfect for us? Some of the foods we eat (e.g. most fruit) are produced by organisms that want(*) us to eat them, some (e.g. most vegetables) are produced by organisms that don't want us to eat them, some (e.g. meat) are produced by animals that run away and have to be caught before we can eat them. We're omnivores and eat a range of foods, seeking out the ones that have things we need and avoiding or treating the poisonous ones. Our ancestors have got by for the last few billion years, except for the ones that didn't. Where does the idea of natural = good come out of that?

(*) I'm using the word "want" very loosely here, obviously. Natural selection leads plants to produce edible fruit to spread their seeds.

Example: willow bark contains a compound called salicylic acid that relieves pain when consumed by humans. Unfortunately it hurts your stomach, so a scientist whose name I've forgotten developed a form called acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin) that's somewhat easier on your stomach. Some people think willow bark is better than aspirin because it's natural. Perhaps they think willow trees produce salicyclic acid for the benefit of humans and it's been perfected for that purpose. I don't. I think it's an accident, that there's no reason to expect the natural form to be better and good reason to believe it's worse and I prefer the synthetic form.

Humans have developed the intelligence to pick and choose what foods do or don't suit their diet, as well as developing techniques to catch, harvest, modify (e.g. cook) and farm those foods. Unfortunately we are now the dominant, and massively overrepresented, species on earth so are putting unsustainable pressures on its resources including food. In order to feed our ever increasing population we are impinging on food sources previously consumed by other species. This is resulting in us increasingly causing imbalances in natural processes ranging from animal species extinction to mutations of microorganisms many of which are through ignorance of the complexity of the systems we are influencing.

That same ignorance in a species would usually result in the decline or extinction of that species but our domination of natural processes is currently allowing us to override such natural checks and balances, so far....

Nature, or life, on Earth will continue long after our species has finished its brief existence here. The only question there is to what degree we stuff up the environment that remains before we reach our expiry date.

[MSTRS:Me]

...us increasingly causing imbalances ....mutations ... through ignorance of the complexity of the systems we are influencing.

And this is why lots of us don't trust chemically produced food additives

[Badjelly]

And this is why lots of us don't trust chemically produced food additives

OK. So in the context of the present discussion (which I agree has largely run its course) the folate that is added to bread is a chemically produced food additive which is therefore untrustworthy, unlike the folate that occurs naturally in grains. Right?

Do you know how the additive folate is actually made? (I don't, I'm just asking.) Is it actually "chemically produced"? If it were extracted from a natural source would that be less untrustworthy? And if it is synthetic, how is it actually different from the naturally occurring form?

I think you can see where I'm coming from: I am deeply sceptical about this whole natural=good, synthetic=bad business.

[MSTRS:Me]

I'm sure there is a plant (or something) that the ancients used to combat nausea in pregnant women. Scientists came up with....thalidomide.
Perhaps not the same thing, but see where I am going?

[FROSTY:Me]

I can tell ya what I WONT be eating if Im holidaying in Australia.
Ya know what makes me totally 100% piss myself laughing obver this "issue"?
The Gubbiment actually lost the bread companies a fantastic sales tool.

Imagine instead of this bullshit we tried this the other way.

Advert on TV and in the likes of Mother and child magazine.

LOOK NEW WONDER BREAD.
THIS FANTASTIC BREAD IS FORTIFIED WITH FOLIC ACID FOR ALL YOU PREGNANT LADIES OR WOMEN CONCIDERING HAVING A BABY.
ONLY $7.00 A LOAF

[Skyryder]

As from September Iodine is going to be added to bread.

I see the Bakers Association via Katherine Rich have not raised a campaign against that nor has there been a public outcry.

Now I would have thought Rich and the Bakers Association would have raised this with equal vigor along with their opposition to Vitamin B9. But no. Not shred of consistancy in respect of the compulsary addition of iodine to bread. Now I don't have any figures on the amount of iodine that is lacking in the nations diet intake if indeed there is one, but given the assumption that most people use iodised salt I would have thought that the addition of Vitamin B9 as against iodine would be of greater benefit to the 'general' population

It seems to me that the folic acid debate has more to do politics and remember that this was an agreement that Labour set up, than the health of the nation



Skyryder

[Skyryder]

I can tell ya what I WONT be eating if Im holidaying in Australia.
Ya know what makes me totally 100% piss myself laughing obver this "issue"?
The Gubbiment actually lost the bread companies a fantastic sales tool.

Imagine instead of this bullshit we tried this the other way.

Advert on TV and in the likes of Mother and child magazine.

LOOK NEW WONDER BREAD.
THIS FANTASTIC BREAD IS FORTIFIED WITH FOLIC ACID FOR ALL YOU PREGNANT LADIES OR WOMEN CONCIDERING HAVING A BABY.
ONLY $7.00 A LOAF

Ya need to post those thoughts on a bakers website. There is indeed a salepitch there. Good thoughts
Frosty.

[Forest]

It seems to me that the folic acid debate has more to do politics and remember that this was an agreement that Labour set up, than the health of the nation

I completely agree. The entire debate has been conducted and decided on political grounds.

Which is shameful.

[Indiana_Jones]

-Indy

[Mom]

I can tell ya what I WONT be eating if Im holidaying in Australia.

Watch out for buns, donuts, pizzas, pies etc...if it has flour in it you get folic acid...LOL

[James Deuce]

I can tell ya what I WONT be eating if Im holidaying in Australia.
Ya know what makes me totally 100% piss myself laughing obver this "issue"?
The Gubbiment actually lost the bread companies a fantastic sales tool.

Imagine instead of this bullshit we tried this the other way.

Advert on TV and in the likes of Mother and child magazine.

LOOK NEW WONDER BREAD.
THIS FANTASTIC BREAD IS FORTIFIED WITH FOLIC ACID FOR ALL YOU PREGNANT LADIES OR WOMEN CONCIDERING HAVING A BABY.
ONLY $7.00 A LOAF

Ummm, Burgen already do that.

[Shadows]

As from September Iodine is going to be added to bread.

I see the Bakers Association via Katherine Rich have not raised a campaign against that nor has there been a public outcry.

Now I would have thought Rich and the Bakers Association would have raised this with equal vigor along with their opposition to Vitamin B9. But no. Not shred of consistancy in respect of the compulsary addition of iodine to bread. Now I don't have any figures on the amount of iodine that is lacking in the nations diet intake if indeed there is one, but given the assumption that most people use iodised salt I would have thought that the addition of Vitamin B9 as against iodine would be of greater benefit to the 'general' population

It seems to me that the folic acid debate has more to do politics and remember that this was an agreement that Labour set up, than the health of the nation



Skyryder

The addition of iodine in salt has been proven to reduce the occurrence of goitre, mental retardation, breast cancer, and immunodeficiency in the population for quite some period of time - and unlike synthesised folic acid, everybody needs it in their diet, and it is proven that there are no dangerous side effects from consuming it.

Iodine is not naturally present in the NZ food chain in the amounts required by the human body, I believe this is because NZ soils are deficient in it. Likewise in many other parts of The World.

Therefore, a balanced diet alone will not ensure in this case that one will receive the intake required.

Because of the drive to reduce the salt intake in our diets, and the move many have taken to using plain rock salt (usually in conjunction with wearing sandals, ponchos, and oversize earrings, while hugging trees, letting their legs and armpits get hairy, saving the whales, etc, etc), the potential for a population plagued by the effects of iodine deficiency has returned.

Hence the bread alternative. I guess it would only mean changing from using plain salt to iodised salt where the recipes call for it so it won't add shitloads of expense to the manufacturing process (read - what we pay for it at the supermarket).

Yes, it is mass medication again - however it isn't at all new and it is, in fact, important that it is done through some delivery method or another.