Flags, colours, and their use

**koba** · 30th July 2009, 08:00

Originally Posted by ajturbo

i will now be INCLUDING the 250 riders in my extra riders breif...

unfortunately i ASSUMED that as they were riding in a "faster" (cough) class, that they were more experienced...

AJ was wrong...

but luckily we can sort this out!!!!

Make it all for all new riders and go though all the basics of racing.
It may be boring but somthing we clicked to in the weekend was a few of our mates starting off in faster classes didn't really know thier arseholes from their elbows.
We gave them a quick explaination but it is easy to forget how much there is to learn about racing when you have been doing it for a while.
We also need to include things like "The white stuff is to soak up the oil, try to avaoid it if at all possible".
I shit you not.

**scrivy** · 30th July 2009, 08:26

Originally Posted by FROSTY

Sorry you tricycle guys you really are missing the point.
What was needed was a flag that said clearly -GET THE FUCK OFF THE TRACK NOW. -- no not later NOW I'll stand corrected but I think the concequences of oil on the track are a bit less dire for you guys than it is for a solo hitting an oil slick mid corner. Regardless of personal responsibility even at half pace oil is still bad news to hit.
Not only that but the whole furrrore really is about the 45 minutes raceing was stopped for whilst the oil was cleaned up.
I stand behind my origonal suggestion --that being KISS.
Black flag waved at you means STOP and leave the track.

KISS - I agree totally!! But, who can read a number on a board at over 140km??? Do we need to sit an eye examination prior to being issued MNZ licences?
Also, will other riders slow down to look at the number and be hit from behind??

Yellow: Waved – SLOW DOWN NOW – Proceed with extreme caution. No overtaking until the danger area is passed, be prepared to stop.

BE PREPARED TO STOP..... Says it all already!

**FROSTY:Me** · 30th July 2009, 08:49

Actually guys I don't want to stir up a hornets nest here but to my knowledge good ol NZ is the ONLY country where you can literally BUY a day licence with apsolutely NO track experience at all and go out on a superbike and race.
THAT part of the system has concerned me for ages.

**scrivy** · 30th July 2009, 08:57

Originally Posted by FROSTY

Actually guys I don't want to stir up a hornets nest here but to my knowledge good ol NZ is the ONLY country where you can literally BUY a day licence with apsolutely NO track experience at all and go out on a superbike and race.
THAT part of the system has concerned me for ages.

But the bigger concern for me Frosty, is that you can get 3 stamps in your MNZ logbook by racing on a bucket, then as you say, go straight to a superbike (if you have the money), and race where ever you want!! Scary shit!!
It should be 3 stamps in the class you will race that season maybe?

**FROSTY:Me** · 30th July 2009, 08:59

Originally Posted by scrivy

But the bigger concern for me Frosty, is that you can get 3 stamps in your MNZ logbook by racing on a bucket, then as you say, go straight to a superbike (if you have the money), and race where ever you want!! Scary shit!!
It should be 3 stamps in the class you will race that season maybe?

Mate I feel the two are tied in together.

**MSTRS:Me** · 30th July 2009, 08:59

Originally Posted by FROSTY

What was needed was a flag that said clearly -GET THE FUCK OFF THE TRACK NOW. -- no not later NOW[SIZE=2]....
Black flag waved at you means STOP and leave the track.

Thank fuck for that. That is all I have been saying. In the (mistaken?) belief that a red used as we did, would work.
But the Black doesn't mean Stop and remove yourself now...it simply means Circulate and get off into the pits - someone wants a words.
It would seem the Black/Orange is the flag reqd...along with a number board.

Originally Posted by quickbuck

Of course this all means you have to get the rider to look at you... If they are not looking at marshal posts, at least with peripheral vision, then quite rightly they shouldn't really be out there....

Still not having a go, but this guy WAS looking at us...he just didn't understand

Originally Posted by scrivy

KISS - I agree totally!! But, who can read a number on a board at over 140km??? Do we need to sit an eye examination prior to being issued MNZ licences?
Also, will other riders slow down to look at the number and be hit from behind??

Yellow: Waved – SLOW DOWN NOW – Proceed with extreme caution. No overtaking until the danger area is passed, be prepared to stop.

BE PREPARED TO STOP..... Says it ll already!

I'd say that you'd have to be going a great deal more than 140kph to have trouble seeing a number on a board. Esp when your attention is drawn to it by a (suitable) flag.
And I don't agree with your choice of yellow as being right. All the yellow means is slow down, don't pass anyone and watch ahead...something may be on the track. In this sort of case, the 'something on the track' is actually behind the rider and of no immediate consequence to him.

**FROSTY:Me** · 30th July 2009, 09:18

Look the way see it is this.
There is an issue there is a potential solution. Lets grab it.
how about this as a VIC CLUB suppplimentary reg for meetings.
BLACK FLAG/black orange flag -(im not hooked on either) -pull off the raceing line NOW slow down NOW. STOP off the track at the next available safe marshal point. Offending bike number displayed at race control/start finish point.
Of course if the guy is dumping oil everywhere then the rest of the feild is going to be seeing waved reds anyway
Goal acheived

This is how I see the conversation going down in marshal land
"T3 to control I think number 20 is leaking oil"
Control to T4 PLease confirm and T3 yellow flag
--T4 to control --Yes its oil
--Ok T5 Black flag - FULL COURSE RED
-Followed by T5 and T6 black flag
You guys laugh maybee but it all happens really fast
Say a 2 minute lap of the minefeild --that means a marshal has 30 seconds to ract and flag the guy in

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re ability to see numbers on a board and flags visibility.
I gotta say Us riders don't do outrselves any favours.
If a flag point or simply a flag isn't visible the roder NEEDS to speak to their riders rep to speak to Race Control to raise it as an issue.

**Skunk** · 30th July 2009, 09:57

Originally Posted by FROSTY

Look the way see it is this.
There is an issue there is a potential solution. Lets grab it.
< snip >
If a flag point or simply a flag isn't visible the roder NEEDS to speak to their riders rep to speak to Race Control to raise it as an issue.

More like 10-15 secs between some flags points. And the actual bike still needs identifying...
The other point is that we didn't want to stop the race. We just wanted the one bike off the track so we didn't need to stop the race.
In this case nothing was dropped on the track until he was beyond the last flag point before the pits.
He did a full lap knowing there was something wrong with the bike and was not at race pace. This is the point of concern to me. He should have pulled off at a safe point and checked that what he thought it was, was what it was.

Too many riders (and this is a dig at several riders - mainly from my observations - they seem to be the more 'experienced') consider themselves too important to be held up by the rules and common decency.

**scrivy** · 30th July 2009, 10:05

Originally Posted by MSTRS

But the Black doesn't mean Stop and remove yourself now...it simply means Circulate and get off into the pits - someone wants a words.
It would seem the Black/Orange is the flag reqd...along with a number board.
I suppose it quite well could be.

I'd say that you'd have to be going a great deal more than 140kph to have trouble seeing a number on a board. Esp when your attention is drawn to it by a (suitable) flag.
I could put money on it that alot of people racing do not have impeccable vision. Afterall, its not even a requirement (or even tested) for your MNZ licence. What if you're drafting someone, or alongside them - can you see through them to see a flag? Can you see a number in the pouring rain? And who's going to make a decision on how big the number has to be, or how fat, or what colour, or what font is easy to read? Dont think I'm being pedantic - just realistic. Someone will protest if its not accurate or done to a rule. Even now people say they didn't see a yellow flag. So who's currently looking for a black flag then?
What if the guy in front slows down to look if its his number, and the slipstreamer hits him?

And I don't agree with your choice of yellow as being right. All the yellow means is slow down, don't pass anyone and watch ahead...something may be on the track. In this sort of case, the 'something on the track' is actually behind the rider and of no immediate consequence to him.

That's why I added the extra info of sidecar riders having to look behind also. The reason is not always in front of you.

Originally Posted by FROSTY

Look the way see it is this.
There is an issue there is a potential solution. Lets grab it.
how about this as a VIC CLUB suppplimentary reg for meetings.
BLACK FLAG/black orange flag -(im not hooked on either) -pull off the raceing line NOW slow down NOW. STOP off the track at the next available safe marshal point. Offending bike number displayed at race control/start finish point.
Of course if the guy is dumping oil everywhere then the rest of the feild is going to be seeing waved reds anyway
Goal acheived

Try it out Frosty.
Remember, the Vic club is huge. What's gunna happen at smaller meets, with clubs that dont have the resources and the extra flags?
I still believe if an extra line was added to waved yellow flag rule which should read "Look at your machine and behind you also".
Remember, you ain't gunna lose a place in doing so, but you may save all the riders in losing valuable track time. You might also avoid a slipstreamer smashing into the back of you without knowing why!

**MSTRS:Me** · 30th July 2009, 10:27

Originally Posted by scrivy

That's why I added the extra info of sidecar riders having to look behind also. The reason is not always in front of you.

Fair enough...to a point. Yet, sidecar pilot would look ahead, see nothing, then look to see if swinger still there, s/he is...pilot would then think 'It's not me. Must be that guy over there' ??

**scrivy** · 30th July 2009, 11:19

Originally Posted by MSTRS

Fair enough...to a point. Yet, sidecar pilot would look ahead, see nothing, then look to see if swinger still there, s/he is...pilot would then think 'It's not me. Must be that guy over there' ??

Could do, but in reality I always look around (as everyone will attest to....) and I always check behind my machine for that very reason of leaking fluids. (I know my passenger will never fall off - masterbaters wrists....)
Also, you have look at other racers too. If they've seen a problem with your machine, they will be gesturing you to stop also. I have notified others in the past many many a time.

People have to remember the biggest rule is no overtaking under the yellow. SO TAKE YOUR TIME TO MAKE SURE YOU ARE FIT TO CONTINUE - YOU ARE NOT GOING TO LOSE A PLACE IN DOING SO! Going past 2 marshall points under a yellow is better than coasting around the track until pit entry leaking oil!

**MSTRS:Me** · 30th July 2009, 11:51

Originally Posted by scrivy

Going past 2 marshall points under a yellow is better than coasting around the track until pit entry leaking oil!

Stopping and getting off track when first realised/told is better still...

**sunhuntin** · 30th July 2009, 13:30

i dont know how feasible this is, but would it be possible for riders to rent or buy headsets like the ones used for license tests? then the info for their machine could be given to them without looking for numbers that they maybe cant see for whatever reason. figure if car racing can use them, then motorbikes wouldnt be to big a step. just a thought.

**scrivy** · 30th July 2009, 13:33

Originally Posted by sunhuntin

i dont know how feasible this is, but would it be possible for riders to rent or buy headsets like the ones used for license tests? then the info for their machine could be given to them without looking for numbers that they maybe cant see for whatever reason. figure if car racing can use them, then motorbikes wouldnt be to big a step. just a thought.

But then I couldn't listen to my ipod..........