KTM and Tuneboy - Take Care

[Owl]

Yep fair enough Gremlin!

I was just curious about how well the TuneBoy would work with the KTM, as I know it varies widely between models and makes of bikes.

I've had TuneBoy hooked to my Speed Triple for the last couple of years and found it magic. Shitloads of maps available, but many of them crap, so eventually I had it custom tuned by TripleFourensics.

I couldn't be happier with the result!

[boomer]

standard maps are just that.. standard. Nothing will or can compare to a proper tune done by a trained mechanic with the correct tools.

[idleidolidyll]

Does the 990 have a selectable map dial under the seat like other KTM's?
If so the tuner should have been smart enough to use one of the spare slots or override the useless low power map.
If they weren't onto it enough to think that well; I wouldn't be going back to them.

As an aside: I was talking to Gavin from Yamaha Henderson (whatever the shop is called). Gavin was one of my mecahnics when I worked at AMPS and bloody good at what he does. Gavin's take on Tuneboy vs Power Commander is that the latest PC is so much more adjustable that it makes the TuneBoy something of a joke.
Being able to set partial throttle (15% I think he said as smallest) as well as every few hundred revs makes it far easier to target a specific rev range and get the mapping close to perfect.
I seem to recall Gavin suggesting about $400 on top of the plug in chip to tune it up on his dyno.

If you pinch pennies you get a half arsed job: don't complain

[Owl]

As an aside: I was talking to Gavin from Yamaha Henderson (whatever the shop is called). Gavin was one of my mecahnics when I worked at AMPS and bloody good at what he does. Gavin's take on Tuneboy vs Power Commander is that the latest PC is so much more adjustable that it makes the TuneBoy something of a joke.
Being able to set partial throttle (15% I think he said as smallest) as well as every few hundred revs makes it far easier to target a specific rev range and get the mapping close to perfect.
I seem to recall Gavin suggesting about $400 on top of the plug in chip to tune it up on his dyno.

If you pinch pennies you get a half arsed job: don't complain

I'm afraid I don't get that?

Doesn't sound like there's anything there that TuneBoy can't do and more. I certainly couldn't find anything about the PC5 adjusting ignition map. I also thought TuneEdit maps were adjustable from closed to wide open TP.

[idleidolidyll]

I'm afraid I don't get that?

Doesn't sound like there's anything there that TuneBoy can't do and more. I certainly couldn't find anything about the PC5 adjusting ignition map. I also thought TuneEdit maps were adjustable from closed to wide open TP.

From what he said the tuneboy is adjustable at 1000 rev intervals while the pc was every couple of hundred. Don't quote me on that though, he's the expert with years of dyno experience not me. I'm a salesman and a bike rider: I don't try to second guess guys like Gavin with years of hands on experience.
My advice would be to call the shop and ask to talk to Gav: sales literature is often very selective and nowhere near as reliable as an intelligent operator who knows how both systems work in practice rather than theory.

[Gremlin]

I was just curious about how well the TuneBoy would work with the KTM, as I know it varies widely between models and makes of bikes.

Yeup, apparently they work great with Triumph, and I understand KTM and Triumph use similar ECU... I dunno eh?

Does the 990 have a selectable map dial under the seat like other KTM's?

well, I stand corrected, but since it has never been mentioned (in any of plenty of discussions over the months about various things), I don't believe it does?

I would probably have got a powercommander for the bike (had one for a previous bike) IF it was available, but it isn't... so that option went out the door.

I seem to recall Gavin suggesting about $400 on top of the plug in chip to tune it up on his dyno.

If you pinch pennies you get a half arsed job: don't complain

IF this is aimed at me (I can only really presume it is) then you're barking up the wrong tree. Over $600 spent on Tuneboy license and tuning (which could all be for nothing... we'll see) and all those who ride with me laugh at the dollars that are thrown at the bike in servicing etc. Plenty have commented they could have bought several bikes with the amount I have spent on my baby

I'm happy to spend the dollars getting it right. I am not happy spending the dollars, not getting the result and ending up in a position that is probably worse than before. I spend all day recommending stuff to clients and sorting issues, so I know cutting corners never works long term.

[TripleZee Dyno]

Where do we start?
First off in regard to "fuel injection" as it applies to modern bikes.
The first "computers" fitted to bikes ran ignition systems.
Then they added fuel injection.
These were generally standalone units, no diagnostics, just did what they did.
Electronic versions of the earlier mechanical units.
Put them all in one box and with advances in computing power started adding diagnostics etc until today we have engine mangement systems.
The basic difference between Power commander and ecu tuners like tuneboy, race tuner etc is the PC is a fuel adjustment device and the ecu tuners access the engine management functions within the ecu.
Essentially Tuneboy and most other ecu tuning software access all editable tables in the ECU. Fuel, cylinders, ignition, trims etc. The tuning steps are the as per the factory. They generally wont be in nice easy steps like 250/500/1000 rpm because the map axis of throttle and rpm are actually related to a cells hex address within its table. When these address' are converted to decimal (what we see on the screen) the resulting numbers seem to go up in a random manner, rarely do you see exact 1000 rpm increments.
But well within every 250 rpm of a PC.
As regards tuning flexibility and accuracy compared to a PC, with most PC you have a fuel table per cylinder.
Compare to for example the 990 where there are 10 tables available, fuel, ignition, trims, etc etc
When tuning generally we rely on the fact that the base settings the factory have come up with a pretty good. Changes of exhaust, or aircleaner will likely only require a small fueling adjustment and either a PC or a tuneboy will do the job.
If there are major modifications, compression, cams, etc etc then more than just fueling adjustments will probably be required to get the best from the motor.
If there is a fundamental problem with the factory base settings again more than fueling adjustments will probably be required. (KTM seem to have their fair share of this)
These last two examples are where tuneboy and similar are far superior to a power commander.

Regarding the "map switch" on 690's it is an ignition map switch. Low power, hi power, crappy fuel you get on your journey thru Mogadishu.

[TripleZee Dyno]

if all this is true why dont the factory tools do this?
They do.
But they dont want everyone fooling around with everything because it is easy enough to screw everything so the bike wont even run.
The factory tools they give to the dealers are hobbled to limit the potential damage that can be done.
Not so long ago I had to recreate from scratch a complete map set for a bike.
Someone had got hold of a software tool, completely knackered the maps, and then the tool they had wouldnt work because the maps were empty.
10 hrs and it was running reasonably well. But was by no means finished.
Harley Davidson are probably the only manufacturer who do release their ecu tuning tool to the general public. With all the appropriate disclaimers in triplicate.
I havent seen the new KTM software but as I understand it they have enabled some adjustment of target lambda. In Gremlins map I turned off the O2 sensor during tuning so lamda targets wont work, hopefuly reactivating the O2 sensor will sort that out.

the whole world is a work in progress not just tuning

[TripleZee Dyno]

If anyone is actually interested in this stuff you are welcome to drop by the workshop and I will run a program up and give you a quick run thru
cheers
and people used to complain about carbys

[Dooly]

Just had my Speed Triple and Daytona 955s setup with Tuneboy custom tunes by Tripleforensics in Opunake and the result is staggering.
I cannot believe how much better, faster, and crisper the throttle response is on both.
Performance has improved very well, right thru the rev range, especially down in the emissions rev zones.

[idleidolidyll]

[QUOTE=Gremlin;1129330915]IF this is aimed at me (I can only really presume it is) then you're barking up the wrong tree. QUOTE]

expensive is a relative term: to me, $600 is small change and not well spent if it didn't work (pissed against the wall in fact). Once a bike is running well, the cost to extract more and more torque/power costs more and more for less and less return.

If I was looking to develop a bike, i'd be looking to spend the money on the best product AFTER consulting the experts (which i did).

the last tune up mods on my KTM cost $2500 but that includes a full ti exhaust system (used), some clever air box mods with a new curve in the chip. I got perhaps 5-7HP up top but 20% or better mid range which for a 650 single is pretty damn good.
Next for me would be to go tuneboy, PC or some other chip override to allow the level of future adjustability I expect. That's why I chose to ask an expert I trust who does superlative work.
Other than that, the next best option would be to lose fat off the bike or my midrift; i dunno which would be cheaper/easier.

if you haven't already looked into it, the inlet is usually the place to go on a modern bike when searching for HP (most seem to think exhaust or chip tune but generally without an inlet mod, they're often wrong: it can't blow if it doesn't suck first).
ie: air box mods on a big Yammy I had netted almost 30HP on the dyno; the loud muffler added 1HP.

you sound like you're trying not to find the best but to justify a decision you've already made.

my suggestion was to ring Gavin, he's the expert not me and by the sounds of it, more of an expert than you too.

don't ask for advice if you take umbrage when it is given

[idleidolidyll]

there ya go, John is no slouch and qualifies as an expert; something i have catgorically stated i'm not. like i said, call them and discuss it

however, the next issue you have is deciding which of the two opposing opinions is right and without talking to both you'll usually get the opinion that pushes you toward the system or product that person sells or uses.

John and Gavin know each other and no doubt respect each others handiwork but they obviously have differing opinions on which is best.

what does that indicate? To me it signals that the chip tuning industry is full of good ideas that can be reached through a number of different methods. Who is right? Maybe both.

I'll tell you now though; the last performance tune up on the 690 changed the bike completely. If it was quick before; its lightning now and runs better from 0 to hero. That job was done by the KTM dealer using KTM tunes (Triple X).

If you want to look at ideas for KTM's, fire up alta vists babelfish and go to KTM Sommer for tuning ideas out of the box: http://www.ktm-sommer.de/
there's possibly no better authjority on the brand on the planet

[Dazza]

Just had my Speed Triple and Daytona 955s setup with Tuneboy custom tunes by Tripleforensics in Opunake and the result is staggering.
I cannot believe how much better, faster, and crisper the throttle response is on both.
Performance has improved very well, right thru the rev range, especially down in the emissions rev zones.

So you and Owl like Kerry's work then. He's certainly dedicated to Triumph !

[Owl]

Just had my Speed Triple and Daytona 955s setup with Tuneboy custom tunes by Tripleforensics in Opunake and the result is staggering.
I cannot believe how much better, faster, and crisper the throttle response is on both.
Performance has improved very well, right thru the rev range, especially down in the emissions rev zones.

Great to hear that Dooly! I thought with your background, you may be harder to please than most.

So you and Owl like Kerry's work then. He's certainly dedicated to Triumph !

I certainly do! Yes, very dedicated and what other mechanic cleans like this? He actually makes you want to part with money.

[Gremlin]

don't ask for advice if you take umbrage when it is given

You missed the actual point of the thread entirely. It was not to piss and moan about it, as I was well aware that it was a work in progress. The only intent behind putting up the thread was to make people aware of a potential issue that no-one seemed to be aware of. ie, installing tuneboy may prevent ktm factory software from fully interfacing with the bike. Triple X had to speak to the KTM men in Australia (ie, with years of European experience) and TripleZee also had to go up the chain.

For the record, I wasn't naming names (I don't have issues with either of the businesses, I think they're both superb ), but John has already posted. Triple X did all the tuning, and did what they could with what they had (software, maps etc) at the time (early this year). Then I dealt with John (TripleZee) for Tuneboy. John agreed the KTM map was good, and struggled to gain tangible benefits from tuning, but we (Triple X, TripleZee, I) could all see the bike was still running rich. Its not an HP quest, its got plenty already, its about getting it tuned right, as 8L/100km is not right (yes, partly, its the way I ride it )

If we want to wave our e-penis' about as to who has spent the most, I wasn't counting the pipes Pipes (and not akra at that - not at $4500), air filter and the tuneboy and tuning alone easily surpass $2500. I'm not even sure how many dollars (or labour hours) have been spent by Triple X on the tuning... but Triple X has had well past $6k all up in less than 9 months, but that includes servicing, tyres, parts (not tuneboy or pipes tho).

The issue I encountered (and was warning people about) was that when I took it back to Triple X for another service, there was a new map available from KTM, but they couldn't load it because of Tuneboy.

Hopefully in the next few days we should be closer to a resolution, everyone will have learned something along the way and the bike will be ready to have more km put on it