Wellington Parking - They are about to clamp down on bike parking

[James Deuce]

Because wardens do not know when a bike arrives or leaves, it would not be practical for them to make that transaction. A better model would be something like SmartPark, which is activated and deactivated by the user. However, a SmartPark machine out in the open wouldn't survive long (weather or theft). We are currently trialling a new technology like SmartPark but with a barcode sticker that is placed on the vehicle and the user activates and deactivates their on-line account via TXT message. The on-line account can then be topped up via internet banking etc and they only pay for the actual time used. Ths is much more secure as no-one else can use the same barcode unless they also steal the mobile phone number associated with it. Wardens simply scan the barcode and their hand-held gadget shows whether the barcode has been activated for the correct area and they have not exceeded the maximum limit. This could be a potential solution, but I'd still like to hear other ideas.

RFID was the only solution WCC was prepared to discuss last time around.

However, you're discussing semantics. I suggested the Snapper model and you simply responded with slightly different technology. It's the same idea. A separately held user account specifically used for parking that is debited by a technology solution.

[Swoop]

Note that Wellington is a lot more dense...

It must have something to do with the circular wind tunnel, filled with politicians...


Thread needed some humour...

[Jon Visser]

I still believe that the council approaching private car parks has given them (the car parks) the idea that they can get away with charging for a service which used to be for free (to my understanding bikes could park in unused space for free in private car parks).

Some garages (e.g. James Smith) provided some "otherwise unused" spaces for free and they will continue to do so (though in relation to security, lighting, weather protection etc you get what you pay for :-)

Others allowed individual bikes to park in car spaces at the same rates as for cars.

The new option is that several bikes will be able to use good quality spaces for reduced rates at most garages - some garages will need some time to set aside suitable space & modify barrier arms & detectors etc, but the more riders that ask for it the more facilities will be made available.

In relation to a previous post about someone trying to get through a barrier arm, I used to park my bike in a basement garage and had the access card inserted into a pocket on the back of my riding glove (many gloves have these). This worked fine when it was dry but it was hard to wait on a slope in the wet so I usually just followed a car...

[scracha]

Note that Wellington is a lot more dense and compact than Auckland

Good try, but comparing Wellington to one of the LEAST densley populated cities on the planet isn't particularly relevant. Why not have a look at how non NZ cities (you know..cities that are well into the millions) manage to have free motorcycle parking?



This is blatant revenue generation and I'd strongly advocate Welly bikers getting off their collective arses and organising protest.


A kiwi verison of notobikeparkingfees.com is in order methinks.


Hmm...come to think of it. I'd suggest all NZ bikers get off their arses, because if the capital gets away with it, other towns and cities will follow.

[bogan]

Good try, but comparing Wellington to one of the LEAST densley populated cities on the planet isn't particularly relevant. Why not have a look at how non NZ cities (you know..cities that are well into the millions) manage to have free motorcycle parking?



This is blatant revenue generation and I'd strongly advocate Welly bikers getting off their collective arses and organising protest.


A kiwi verison of www.notobikeparking.com is in order methinks.


Hmm...come to think of it. I'd suggest all NZ bikers get off their arses, because if the capital gets away with it, other towns and cities will follow.

jon did compare wellington with san francisco, where they charge for parking, but maybe thats why the comparison was made

The protest i'd be most keen for was sensible ticketing, theres plenty of spaces to park on road, or in car parks, which are simply left over space that hasnt been marked, or lazily marked as broken yellows. But if you park there, you get a ticket.

Maybe sensible marking is a more viable idea though, how bout every ticket issued to a biker, the biker can apply to be let off by rezoning the space as a bike park? Would you be open to this sort of idea jon?

[Pwalo]

I work in Petone, but had to pop into Wellington yesterday to pick up some new specs. I couldn't find a 'legit' bike park anywhere round the CBD at 9.30am.

I hadn't realised that there were so many scooters around the place! It was just like Melbourne seeing bikes parked up everywhere, and I didn't see any upset locals complaining as I parked up on the W-I-D-E footpath. (Seems as if the footpaths are wider than the road in some places).

I really can't see a problem with the status quo. As long as m/cycles and scooters aren't blocking access, who cares? If some one parks in a stupid place ticket them.

[scracha]

I liked this snippet:-

What’s so bad about charging motorcycles to park when cars have to pay?
Rather than asking why shouldn’t bikes pay, ask yourself why should cars pay?

Cars should pay because:

• They pollute,
• They congest,
• They take up a large amount of road or kerb space,
• They cause significant wear and tear to road surfaces,
• They demand large-scale and complex parking infrastructures to accommodate them,
• Their use needs to be controlled and/or discouraged.

Motorcycles/Scooters however:

• Do not pollute as much as cars,
• Do not congest at all,
• Do not take up large amounts of road or kerb space,
• Do not cause wear and tear to road surfaces,
• Do not require large-scale and complex parking infrastructures to accommodate them,
• Their use needs to be encouraged and promoted as an alternative to both cars and the already overburdened public transport system.

[sinned]

I work in Petone, but had to pop into Wellington yesterday to pick up some new specs. I couldn't find a 'legit' bike park anywhere round the CBD at 9.30am.

Thats why I take the car into the city during the day - I can nearly always get a street park and if not I use a parking building.
Street parking for cars is something the WCC is managing well.

What’s so bad about charging motorcycles to park when cars have to pay?

Motorcycles/Scooters however:

• Do not pollute as much as cars,
• Do not congest at all,
• Do not take up large amounts of road or kerb space,

I am not sure these points are that accurate.

• MC typically use 50% less fuel than a car. However some are serious polluters and especially 2 cycle scooters.
• Of course they add to congestion - just a little less than cars. In slow / crawling traffic they or the rider are less efficient at keeping a steady flow.
• A MC parked side on is about as long as a car is wide. Sure 2 or 3 can be parked in the space otherwise taken by a car.

It doesn't help the cause by overstating the case for MC/Scoots.

[scracha]

I am not sure these points are that accurate.[*]MC typically use 50% less fuel than a car. However some are serious polluters and especially 2 cycle scooters.

A huge percentage of the pollution a vehicle makes in its lifetime is during it's creation and destruction........constructing a bike causes waaaay less pollution. "some are serious polluters....yep...$hite old bikes and $hite old cars...hardly relevant". Hey...I'm all for banning 2 smokes in cities :-)

[*]Of course they add to congestion - just a little less than cars. In slow / crawling traffic they or the rider are less efficient at keeping a steady flow.

By just a little less, you mean that they need less than half the width of lane a car uses. This is especially relevant in reducing congestion at intersections. Traffic seems to flow pretty well in Vietnam and parts of India where bikes are the majority. There's no way in hell you'd get that volume of people moving if they were all driving cars.

[*]A MC parked side on is about as long as a car is wide. Sure 2 or 3 can be parked in the space otherwise taken by a car.

See your previous pointl; a MC parked parallel to the road is not blocking the road and adding to congestion like a similarly parked car would.
If a motorcycle is parked side on (perpendicular?) then it's normally due to there being limited parking available and therefore its making more space available for cars to park when compared to parking a car.

It doesn't help the cause by overstating the case for MC/Scoots.

Doesn't help by understating the case either.

You can make constructive and civilised points all you like. Bikers in Wellington and the rest of this country are yet again about to get shat on by the revenue gatherers unless we protest loudly

Don't come complaining like a Pomm after WDC start charging and handing out tickets left right and center. If it were my local council doing similar I'd seriously be starting a fucking riot. In fact, I feel so strongly about this issue that if someone down there got their finger out their arse and organised protest rides and some sort of legal fund to fight it I'd certainly join in the fun.

[rustic101]

I spent the time "thrash -ing through the other arguments and counter claims" so you could also. Why should Jon answer your questions, and the revenue, cost for parking questions have been well answered. It is quite obvious a lot of KB posters here don't like the answers - but that is another issue.
My view - you should be paying for parking.

Yes I have read all of the threads and details, but reiterated that I was; in short, 'not going to cover ground already covered'!!! Jon has presented here on KB representing WCC and is prepared to answer ALL of our questions (full credit)... That aside even if he had not, he is a civil servant, as such must provide an open and transparent answer to questions from the public...

As for KB readers not liking the answers! You may be right, but that does not mean we or I have to bend over and take one up the arse... Every body is entitled to their opinion and I like others are exercising that right by asking reasonable questions. IN this particular case it does 'matter,' as if every one rolled over then there will be no accountability, then watch rates, parking and everything else go through the roof..

There are some people who will pay the window price and others that will haggle for a deal, I know which one I am. Personally do not care about my own needs as my employer allows me to park in our building but that will not prevent me from using my knowledge or skills to benefit others.

I suspect that WCC did not just wake up one morning and think,,,, hum lets start time limiting M/C parks.. It is my view after reviewing the WCC financial forecasts, traffic safety data and strategic direction, that this is a very clear determined move to increase revenue for WCC!!!

I'll leave the last quote to my mother - Believe half of what you see and nothing of what you read.

[huff3r]

Other points:
[LIST][*]I am a ratepayer why should I be subsidising parking? - How many motorcycles and scooters parked for free in the city are owned by riders living out of the city?

I live in Porirua. My rates pay for ANYONE from ANYWHERE in the WORLD to park for free. I don't mind. It makes everyones lives much much easier.
And before you go on, most those who park in our free carparks are from outside the region, who come to Porirua to shop only because it will not cost them parking.

[Swoop]

And before you go on, most those who park in our free carparks are from outside the region, who come to Porirua to shop only because it will not cost them parking.

Something the retailers in central Welly will be able to start bitching over. Less bikes will equal less passing foot-traffic customers.

[Jon Visser]

jon did compare wellington with san francisco, where they charge for parking, but maybe thats why the comparison was made

The protest i'd be most keen for was sensible ticketing, theres plenty of spaces to park on road, or in car parks, which are simply left over space that hasnt been marked, or lazily marked as broken yellows. But if you park there, you get a ticket.

Maybe sensible marking is a more viable idea though, how bout every ticket issued to a biker, the biker can apply to be let off by rezoning the space as a bike park? Would you be open to this sort of idea jon?

Thank you - my point was exactly that - you cannot compare Wellington CBD to Auckland.

San Fransisco does have free parking for motorcycles, about 475 spaces for ten times the number of riders than in Wellington (where we provide 450 spaces for free). As a percentage, that means Wellington riders are a lot better off in comparison. For the spaces in San Fransisco where fees apply (I haven't counted them but probably several hundred at least) they charge something quite nominal like US$0.25/hr (US$40/month).

While I would agree that riders create less pollutants than other modes of transport and park a lot more efficiently, they do not improve traffic flows or reduce congestion. If they ride safely (i.e. in line with traffic as they are supposed to do) there is no discernable improvement in traffic flow. The ones that ride between vehicles frequently have accidents which then holds up 40,000+ commuters for a few minutes each causing significantly worse overall network performance (per kilometre-hour travelled per year) for the city than if they had used a safer mode of transport. Sure it may be the cars that take out the rider, but if the rider had been riding in line with the cars in the first place they would have been much less likely to be hit (this discussion has probably been had on other bulletin boards already). While an individual rider may get to their destination quicker than they would if they had been driving a car, this does not mean everybody else does. Some never arrive :-( Unless people have been in an accident or had to deal with the consequences of a rider having an accident they really have no idea what the real cost of such accidents on our community truly are. Some laws really do exist to protect, not to annoy...

As I have said before, it would be great to see a reduction in motorcycle accidents which would make all of their other benefits a lot more compelling as reasons to encourage their use.

[davereid]

Thanks for fronting up in the forum Jon, a brave move by any standard !

But, I don't think council should be considering accident statistics in its transport planning, that is the job of other agencies.

And, if accident rates were to be considered, walking and cycling would have to discouraged well before motorcycling, as they both have higher accident rates per passenger km than motorcycling.

Since the introduction of cycle helmets, the number of people cycling for transport has reduced by about 19%, with the distance they travel reducing by about 3% per annum, so allowing for cyclists, doesnt seem to stack up well with what people are actually doing.

Thats as people are choosing motorcycles in preference to public transport, or cars.

You argue that providing a motorcycle park removes a car park.

Quite True !

But removing a car park, provides 5 or 6 motorcycle parks - way more than the number of people carried by the car displaced by the bike !

Transport planners also tend to make the statement that public transport is the most carbon friendly, and sustainable form of transport.

But its not actually true, its not even almost true.

In a transport planners best fantasy, trams are bursting with happy commuters sharing jokes and comradeship, all arriving at work on time, clutching wicker baskets full of goodies, as the children politely stand to allow the elderly to sit.

In reality, only at tidal flow peak times are the busses and trams full, and then the elderly stand. No one sharing jokes, just swine flu, and the cost of the trip is four or five times the cost of petrolwould be. Most of the time the busses are empty, providing transport to no-one, or only a drunk that has peed himself, and a terrified teenage girl for him to leer at.

Thats the insurmountable problem that public transport faces - It can be transport efficient, with a bus every 3 minutes just in case there is a passenger needing transport. Of course, thats not very fuel efficient.

Or it can be fuel efficient, with the bus leaving when it is full. But thats not very transport efficient.

In reality, public transport has to lie somewhere in the middle, managing to be neither fuel efficient, or transport efficient.

So, while a bus can have infinitely inefficient fuel usage - that is it is carrying NO useful passengers, a motorcycle is different.

Even carrying only the rider and his gear it is fully utilised. Going from where the user is, to where he wants to be, at exactly the right time, without a single wasted km.

The future is personal transport, not public transport. We simply arent rich enough to keep pouring millions and millions of dollars into that black hole.

[Clockwork]

Sorry Jon but I can't agree with you. Motorcycles CAN and DO reduce congestion. Can you imagine how congested those major Asian cities would be if everyone currently riding a bike or scooter started driving a car? Can you imagine how much less congested Wellington would be if everyone currently driving a car started riding a bike?

And when you start justifying your Council's position by putting on a "concern-for-our-safety hat" I get cold shivers down my spine. Don't you worry about us, We're big boy and girls, we know the risks involved and for our own reasons choose to take them on, in all weathers. In doing so we make this city's roads and public transport systems (which we've already paid our share for by the way) just a little less congested for everyone else.

We don't ask much in return, just somewhere to park the machine reasonably close to our destination so that wont need to walk halfway across the City in hot, heavy (quite possibly wet) riding gear. And preferably, as now, free of charge.