Two-stroke website, worth a look

**noobi** · 25th September 2009, 21:42

yamaha dont seem to be rolling over just yet...

http://www.fullnoise.com.au/new_prod...s=209200925852

theoretically a 2 stroke could make twice the power of a 4 stroke, due to having twice as many power strokes. but reliastically this doesnt happen. due to mechanical friction, tune, mechanical wear etc...

**barty5** · 25th September 2009, 22:28

Originally Posted by cheese

America is 1/3 of the dirtbike market. Many places have virtually banned 2 strokes cause of emissions, so that doesn't help. Plus most people jump on a 4 stroke and are faster than on a 2 stroke, so it all comes down to sales and American bullshit.

Interesting point on power required to drive EFI - but injectors only draw around 5a max and the electronics would be bugger all. So if they were smart about it they could easily run it. After all my old MB50 2 stroke road bike ran a lighting coil and charged a battery. A typical headlight on scooter even probably draws more current than a EFI system. I'd say it hasn't come out because its easier to just leave things as they are on 2 strokes and sell more 4 strokes because that is what the market wants.

Its going to take a gamble from one of the bike companies to make a DI 2stroke that will be competitive against the 4 strokes, but its still going to have unfair competition when you race a 250 against a 450. Or have they upped the capacity like the 144's that can race against the 250 4s?

you go on about people being faster on a 4 over a 2 but you still ride a 2 have you really had a full day and given a 4 a real ride with an open mind rather than just a quick blast or just sticking with 2 are better cause ive got one ????

**Reckless** · 25th September 2009, 22:38

Originally Posted by cheese

sell more 4 strokes because that is what the market wants.

I reckon it because its because they wanted the market to want them!
If you where the CEO of say Yamaha and some greeny jumped on the fact that 2 strokes produce more pollution it was a golden opportunity for them! 4 strokes produce way more revenue for them and especially their dealer network in parts, labour & maintenance etc as apposed to the do it yourself 2 stroke! Its a no brainer "lets move the market to 4 strokes!! So they did, and we have what we have today!

That being said Scott is quite correct you can jump on a four stroke 250 as a newbie and because of the power delivery ride it easier than a 2 stroke. That was another thing in the development of 2 strokes that went against them. They got tooo powerful! You don't need the power of a 500, not even a 250 2T. That bike comparison I keep posting up proves it, most where fastest on the little 200exc than even their own 4 stroke 450, so you don't need all that power to go fast. And that counted against the 2 smoker when 4 strokes came out! The smoother power delivery. I'll say it again you can make the 2 stroke do anything you want with pipes, fly wheel weights and porting. They just recognized that developing four strokes was much more lucrative for the company.
The market is rebelling a bit now as no one wants your old four stroke because its like a car done 200,000k its fucked! Not like the smoker, new barrel or gearbox bearings and goes for another 2 years! So people are turning back to 2 strokes for a bit more fun factor and the DYI maintenance. Thank god for Ktm and especially their 300 and 200. As Ktm gets more and more market share the others will wake up. But the horse will have bolted and Kawasaki guys like me will be now loyal to Ktm. My 200 is a really good bike for woods riding and you very seldom hear any bad about the 300exc. Ktm sold 25,000 2 strokes in 2008.

They will investigate and initiate Direct injection in some form or other. I have seen the power curves on the net for 450 4T vs 450 2T. They have settled the 450 2T down the give same sort of torque and power curve as the 4T but just more. So IF it takes off you will get a 450 2T that has a tractable power curve like a 4T but more power as a 2T. Whether you can do a new piston on this new fangled thing every 100 hours remains to be seen??? If they put as much time and effort into the 2T as they have the 4T over the last 5 years we'd have it by now. But its just simply not as good a return for the japs, hopefully Ktm will lead the way as rumored??
The Japs don't have to do it now as they are selling way enough bikes not to have to bother and what they are selling is far better for them in terms of revenue. I'm not being anti 4 stroke if I was the CEO of Honda it would be a no brainer to move in that direction! But you can't tell me a few 2 stroke MX bikes are causing global pollution?

Will be an interesting next few years I reckon!

**Buddy L** · 25th September 2009, 22:42

I always thought that peak power on the 125-2/250-4 and 250-2/450-4 classes were about the same with just the 4stroke a more usable and rideable power/toque curve?? (which makes them easyer to ride fast), in the MX state of tune.

If one could ride a 2stroke in its peak power range (not dropping in and out producing wheel spin ) then i see now reason why they shouldn't be competive.

I say long live the 2stroke..... But im glad i have small bore 4stroke for the riding that i do. (at the moment anway)

**cheese** · 25th September 2009, 22:57

Originally Posted by barty5

you go on about people being faster on a 4 over a 2 but you still ride a 2 have you really had a full day and given a 4 a real ride with an open mind rather than just a quick blast or just sticking with 2 are better cause ive got one ????

I have had a good few rides on some 4 strokes, more than a quick blast too. I like them don't get me wrong. Nice bike different riding style that takes some getting used to.

The general opinion out there is that your average rider will be faster on a 4 stroke. This is general opinion and just a personal observation. I don't go on about it. I know I'd recommend someone gets a 250 4 over a 125. But I'd also recommend a 200 2 stroke over a 250 4 stroke. Why? I think that they are easier on the wallet. The average Joe will take a bike to a shop for a piston kit and get stung $700 + (ring around see what you get quoted!)

When I got my CR, I test rode alot of bikes and took a long time to choose what I got and what I could afford. The CR was the best bike for the money at the time, I didn't have the budget for a new bike or a 4stroke of a reasonable age. Also when i worked out what I'd pay for servicing, the 2 stroke made more sense to me.

So I'll be sticking to the 2 stroke for quite some time. Or should I upgrade just cause you have one?

**barty5** · 25th September 2009, 23:02

Originally Posted by Reckless

I reckon it because its because they wanted the market to want them!
If you where the CEO of say Yamaha and some greeny jumped on the fact that 2 strokes produce more pollution it was a golden opportunity for them! 4 strokes produce way more revenue for them and especially their dealer network in parts, labour & maintenance etc as apposed to the do it yourself 2 stroke! Its a no brainer "lets move the market to 4 strokes!! So they did, and we have what we have today!

That being said Scott is quite correct you can jump on a four stroke 250 as a newbie and because of the power delivery ride it easier than a 2 stroke. That was another thing in the development of 2 strokes that went against them. They got tooo powerful! You don't need the power of a 500, not even a 250 2T. That bike comparison I keep posting up proves it, most where fastest on the little 200exc than even their own 4 stroke 450, so you don't need all that power to go fast. And that counted against the 2 smoker when 4 strokes came out! The smoother power delivery. I'll say it again you can make the 2 stroke do anything you want with pipes, fly wheel weights and porting. They just recognized that developing four strokes was much more lucrative for the company.
The market is rebelling a bit now as no one wants your old four stroke because its like a car done 200,000k its fucked! Not like the smoker, new barrel or gearbox bearings and goes for another 2 years! So people are turning back to 2 strokes for a bit more fun factor and the DYI maintenance. Thank god for Ktm and especially their 300 and 200. As Ktm gets more and more market share the others will wake up. But the horse will have bolted and Kawasaki guys like me will be now loyal to Ktm. My 200 is a really good bike for woods riding and you very seldom hear any bad about the 300exc. Ktm sold 25,000 2 strokes in 2008.

They will investigate and initiate Direct injection in some form or other. I have seen the power curves on the net for 450 4T vs 450 2T. They have settled the 450 2T down the give same sort of torque and power curve as the 4T but just more. So IF it takes off you will get a 450 2T that has a tractable power curve like a 4T but more power as a 2T. Whether you can do a new piston on this new fangled thing every 100 hours remains to be seen??? If they put as much time and effort into the 2T as they have the 4T over the last 5 years we'd have it by now. But its just simply not as good a return for the japs, hopefully Ktm will lead the way as rumored??
The Japs don't have to do it now as they are selling way enough bikes not to have to bother and what they are selling is far better for them in terms of revenue. I'm not being anti 4 stroke if I was the CEO of Honda it would be a no brainer to move in that direction! But you can't tell me a few 2 stroke MX bikes are causing global pollution?

Will be an interesting next few years I reckon!

have to say i disagree with a lot of this workin on a 4t is no harder than a 2t and in some ways easyer when you start getting in to mearsuring gasket to get port hights correct etc etc. You dont have this prob with a 4t just rebuild it with what it comes with easy the sitting down with pen paper and workin that shit out a some have seen on our rebuilds at workshop.

As for the oooh its done a heap a hours throw it away or ooh its a 2t lets just stick a new barrel on it there is no reason this can not be done with a 4t. Hell was only 4 years ago i was running a fully rebuilt 1983 tt600 that still went hard no reason and it will happen that people will not continue to do this to modern 4ts. As for the 2t who know parts are more likely to become harder and harder to find as they get older as people tend to give up on the easyer when the shit them selfs from what ive seen seams easyer to flick them off more trashed 2t on trade me than 4ts

And youu can say what you want cause yes i ride a 4t but have you really given a 4t a good trash beat you would be a faster rider.

**cheese** · 25th September 2009, 23:14

Originally Posted by barty5

have to say i disagree with a lot of this workin on a 4t is no harder than a 2t and in some ways easyer when you start getting in to mearsuring gasket to get port hights correct etc etc. You dont have this prob with a 4t just rebuild it with what it comes with easy the sitting down with pen paper and workin that shit out a some have seen on our rebuilds at workshop.

As for the oooh its done a heap a hours throw it away or ooh its a 2t lets just stick a new barrel on it there is no reason this can not be done with a 4t. Hell was only 4 years ago i was running a fully rebuilt 1983 tt600 that still went hard no reason and it will happen that people will not continue to do this to modern 4ts. As for the 2t who know parts are more likely to become harder and harder to find as they get older as people tend to give up on the easyer when the shit them selfs from what ive seen seams easyer to flick them off more trashed 2t on trade me than 4ts

And youu can say what you want cause yes i ride a 4t but have you really given a 4t a good trash beat you would be a faster rider.

Its no harder for you because you do that shit every day. HEAPS of people pay for alot of their bike servicing. To get a rebuild in a 4 stroke is twice the price. I know, I rang around 6 different shops to get prices when i was thinking about getting a 4 stroke.

As for durability, I know its fuckloads of money to get a new set up for a 4 stroke the shits itself - Look at what Kezza paid for the parts on his 450 after it sucked a bit of mud up the breather pipe. If that was a 2 stroke it wouldn't have been an issue. 4 strokes cost more, its a fact.

But as it goes for any bike at all. Look after it right and it will look after you.

**barty5** · 25th September 2009, 23:15

Originally Posted by cheese

I think that they are easier on the wallet. The average Joe will take a bike to a shop for a piston kit and get stung $700 + (ring around see what you get quoted!)

So I'll be sticking to the 2 stroke for quite some time. Or should I upgrade just cause you have one?

that is not what im sayin it a fact most who own a 2t just bag the 4t cause they dont have one or havnt had a good go on one.
as for takin one in to a shop compared to being able to fix your self too many people doubt there abilty to be able to work on a 4t they are piss easy. Most people who work on there 2ts do so lookin at a manual hell the 4t manual is still done in english not that hard just a couple a xtra movin parts and i can say as i can see the trade costs online that parts for a piston rebuild are not that more more at all given time time difference in how oftern they need to be done its just the shops (dealer) charge a shit load more cause they think they can.

Example replaced a crank pulley on a ford territory today rang ford $930 retail trade $790 sweet rang aftermarket supplier cost $250 Rrp $440 and guess what when i picked it up the fucken thing was stamped with ford logo's on came from the same factory just a dealer charging a shit load more cause they call it genuine

**barty5** · 25th September 2009, 23:18

Originally Posted by cheese

Its no harder for you because you do that shit every day. HEAPS of people pay for alot of their bike servicing. To get a rebuild in a 4 stroke is twice the price. I know, I rang around 6 different shops to get prices when i was thinking about getting a 4 stroke.

As for durability, I know its fuckloads of money to get a new set up for a 4 stroke the shits itself - Look at what Kezza paid for the parts on his 450 after it sucked a bit of mud up the breather pipe. If that was a 2 stroke it wouldn't have been an issue. 4 strokes cost more, its a fact.

But as it goes for any bike at all. Look after it right and it will look after you.

I only know what i know cause i refused to pay anyone to work on my bike after payin some one and it shit it self 2 weeks later so a self taught myself shit i didnt even do that well at school so im sure if i can learn it lots a others could to its all in the mind

**Rupe** · 25th September 2009, 23:42

Originally Posted by barty5

I only know what i know cause i refused to pay anyone to work on my bike after payin some one and it shit it self 2 weeks later so a self taught myself shit i didnt even do that well at school so im sure if i can learn it lots a others could to its all in the mind

I agree that they aren't as hard as people make out,

When 2t gears failed you help me pull it down and I rebuilt it on my own at home from split cases, sure I made a couple of phone calls but I followed a manual and it really wasn't that hard.

When I brought a 4t I rebuilt the top end, changed the cam chain, checked the valves, at home, all from a manual. And it took a litlle while, but it was easy. I also self taught myself to service forks, and I'm just teaching myself to re-valve them at the moment. If you have something to work from it's easy, and doesn't have to be expensive.

You shouldn't be scared of working on 4t's, or 2t's, just get some good info and take your time. Then neither of them are that expensive.

As for the 4t vs 2t, most people spout bullshit about both, and haven't ridden enough to comment. The fact is most moden quality bikes are very good, and once you get used to yours you like more than you mates cos his feels strange as it has different bars, or hard seat etc.

**B0000M** · 26th September 2009, 00:59

Originally Posted by Rupe

As for the 4t vs 2t, most people spout bullshit about both, and haven't ridden enough to comment.

i've ridden both enough to comment. but i wont.

**barty5** · 26th September 2009, 08:25

Originally Posted by B0000M

i've ridden both enough to comment. but i wont.

yes we all know which way you swing

**green machine** · 26th September 2009, 13:32

Funny how alot of 2 stroke riders constantly bag 4 strokes on here(it's like groundhog day),at the end of the day we all ride what we like and personally i don't give a monkeys what anyone else rides as long as i'm happy riding mine.

**Reckless** · 26th September 2009, 14:23

Let me make it clear I don't mind four strokes, I just don't think the manufacturers have given 2 smokers a fair deal. The only place I can see that I've come close to bagging them, is saying that after a few years they are more fucked than the 2 smoker. I'd love to see Direct injection take off and 2T and 4T race against each other again, whoever wins! I've re read my post and don't see it as a big bag of 4T's, just history as I see it. Even if it is a bit one eyed its not a big put down of the 4T! I do own a CRF.