Flags, colours, and their use

[Billy]

A well known WMCC ex prez is one. Under MNZ rules the other bike involved would have parked off the track - not been trying to make it to the pits.

If that rule was current at the time,Then yes you would be correct,I have a sneaking suspicion that rule was included as a result of that incident,However I could be wrong about that.It also could have been avoided if there had been a flaggie in the kink,But the officials thought they knew better.It also could possibly have been avoided if the abovementioned rider had been forced to read the rulebook so he could answer a 25 question test before he was granted a licence

[Skunk]

If your referring to the numbnuts as a referance to me young man , i would cease and desist very fast.
Whille i am at it and you seem a bit rattled , heres what i think.
You burst onto the scene from some hole in the ground , make alot of noise and piss alot of people off to no end.
Your a tree climbing monkey in a de-forrestation zone buddy and i dont see a future for noisy , unqualified oxygen wasters like yourself in this scene.
Try to fit a mouthgaurd for a change and keep your antics to the board room . I dont like (and nore do many i know) liars and blam shifters so shussh up for a change.
By the way , im on the ferry tomorrow morn so i wont see your tirade for 2 weeks , but im sure it will be here to read when i get home.

PS; i have enough friends so i will get over it .

Ahhhh thats better.

Paul.

Nice Paul. That's helps me understand where you, Frosty, Billy and others are coming from immensely. Not.
You may note that I have asked for a calcification of what you are saying a few times now. I guess it's just you need to show everyone you are superior in every way because you're older and been racing for years. Why do you think I'm still asking YOU for a clarification of what you are saying? Well, because you're older and been racing for years. Instead you resort to personal insults and tell me to get away from organising racing. Thanks for your reply. And by the way - No, I was not referring to you at all - why did you even think that? I was referring to people who don't even bother to find out what ANY of the rules are - not even the yellow/red flag. The ones who don't check they have any brake pads left. The ones who think that the race meeting is all about them. They are the danger to the other riders. Not you. Not Billy. Not Frosty. Not most of the riders. Just the ones who think that buying a race licence means they are ready to race. That scares me a little. I want to make a better somehow. It appears you want me to fuck off, rather then help me or change things for better.

I'll repeat the original question to see if anyone can tell me (because I haven't been on the racing scene long and I don't understand this issue apart from what I have seen).

Are you saying that a bike leaking oil or losing parts is safer going round the track than pulling off the track as soon as it is safe to do so? If so why? Why is that so hard to answer?

PS I know you have friends: you're a well respected rider and now helping others. Help me - don't insult me.

[Skunk]

If that rule was current at the time,Then yes you would be correct,I have a sneaking suspicion that rule was included as a result of that incident,However I could be wrong about that.It also could have been avoided if there had been a flaggie in the kink,But the officials thought they knew better.It also could possibly have been avoided if the abovementioned rider had been forced to read the rulebook so he could answer a 25 question test before he was granted a licence

Thanks Billy. I think the rule was there before the incident. I don't know Puke well enough to comment on the flaggie point - I guess they never had one so why change? And that is where I'm coming from - what can be done to make things better? My lack of experience makes me see things differently to experienced eyes. I don't want to be an official who thinks he knows better, I actually want to know better. When I see something that doesn't make sense I ask why? I know that pisses people off but tough. How else can the better be achieved?

I would like to see a test before the licenses are issued and I think this should be done by the clubs or by MNZ.
One way: you apply for a license. You get a question sheet from MNZ and have to answer general race conduct and track rules. Mail it back and receive your license (or not). That would mean that they have to at least open the rule book.
The other way I see is the question sheet held by the club and the test to be supervised by a club official. A bit harder with clubs like ours - members everywhere.

[MSTRS:Me]

I'll repeat the original question to see if anyone can tell me (because I haven't been on the racing scene long and I don't understand this issue apart from what I have seen).

Are you saying that a bike leaking oil or losing parts is safer going round the track than pulling off the track as soon as it is safe to do so? If so why? Why is that so hard to answer?

And I started this thread to find out if there was a flag (or alternate use of existing flag) to achieve getting a bike off the track now. Where it is. No further circulation.
No - there isn't (except at the Start/Finish line), and no will to introduce at other points. So the assumption has to be made that it is considered safe for a fluid/parts shedding bike to do so - AT LEAST UNTIL SOMEONE DIES as a result of allowing said circulation.
Frustrating, isn't it?

[roadracingoldfart]

Nice Paul. That's helps me understand where you, Frosty, Billy and others are coming from immensely. Not.
You may note that I have asked for a calcification of what you are saying a few times now. I guess it's just you need to show everyone you are superior in every way because you're older and been racing for years. Why do you think I'm still asking YOU for a clarification of what you are saying? Well, because you're older and been racing for years. Instead you resort to personal insults and tell me to get away from organising racing. Thanks for your reply. And by the way - No, I was not referring to you at all - why did you even think that? I was referring to people who don't even bother to find out what ANY of the rules are - not even the yellow/red flag. The ones who don't check they have any brake pads left. The ones who think that the race meeting is all about them. They are the danger to the other riders. Not you. Not Billy. Not Frosty. Not most of the riders. Just the ones who think that buying a race licence means they are ready to race. That scares me a little. I want to make a better somehow. It appears you want me to fuck off, rather then help me or change things for better.

I'll repeat the original question to see if anyone can tell me (because I haven't been on the racing scene long and I don't understand this issue apart from what I have seen).

Are you saying that a bike leaking oil or losing parts is safer going round the track than pulling off the track as soon as it is safe to do so? If so why? Why is that so hard to answer?

PS I know you have friends: you're a well respected rider and now helping others. Help me - don't insult me.

First off , I don’t pretend to talk for Frosty or Billy and reading my post I don’t see any sign of doing so. I speak for myself unless I am asked to represent or have a mandate given to me by the team I am involved with.
I did not tell you to remove yourself from the organising of racing , I will
However suggest a different approach to the way you talk to people if you want to be heard and seen as proactive.

I am far from superior to anyone and don’t pretend to be apart from what I do holding a set of handlebars, I am not a wanker , im a bastard and you can clarify that with my mum.
If past experience counts as knowledge then yes I have some , if you ask me if I believe that makes me better I doubt it , that’s ignorance.

When you race for the amount of time I have there are some clear alterations to the rules that come and go along the way , the entire change from ACU to MNZ was just an example of ruling changes which altered classes and the majority of the rule structure. These alterations sometimes work and sometimes don’t so amendments
are called for but not always to a satisfactory result (read hash job) .
I personally class the “park it rule “ in this category.
Red flags were only allowed to be shown at the start / finish line before a nasty incident I was involved in a few years ago , that rule was altered but I wonder, if there was not such a serious result in that crash if the rule would have been changed outside the public eye with police etc having input. I lobbied hard to have that flag crap sorted before and after the incident and am happy to see it changed , thanks Paul Stewart, good work mate.

Your alluding to the ignorance of the rule book is such a historical concern I or you can never alter that situation so don’t get bitter and twisted about it . While its so easy to get a comp licence there will never be a change and only MNZ can alter that stupid scenario. Even the MNZ stewards don’t know the rule book and have been responsible for huge cock ups involving safety and fairness. I wont go into specifics as I don’t think they are relevant here in this discussion.

You want me to clarify if I think a bike is better to circulate with damage/ problems or to park it , I personally believe the situation cant be answered in a general fashion but I have given a few eg; in my previous posts as to why I feel this way.
As with any issue some have a propensity to vote pro and some anti . I vote to cover the logical. Not all situations are the same so a blanket rule is hard to clarify
EG; if a bike has an issue between turn 1 and the esses at Manfeild I would hate to see that bike park up on the inside or outside of the esses, carry on to the slip road before the hairpin and I would congratulate that rider for being proactive. It scares me when I see a rider that crashes in the esses and just stands holding their bike where it stopped while there is still racing and the chance of a bike hitting a stranded rider is increased considering the same type of crash normally deposit’s a bike in the same place as the stranded rider from the first crash, I have seen it and its devastating. A parked up bike is a target for a crashing bike in some situations , don’t park there and the chance of being hit is nil.
Your reference to an accident at Puke is from what I understand due to a rider trying to reach the side of the track to “park it “, am I correct ?? .

PS; now I have found out its only Sunday I don’t get the boat till tomorrow morning so I now have time to sleep a bit .

Paul.

[FROSTY:Me]

And I started this thread to find out if there was a flag (or alternate use of existing flag) to achieve getting a bike off the track now. Where it is. No further circulation.
No - there isn't (except at the Start/Finish line), and no will to introduce at other points. So the assumption has to be made that it is considered safe for a fluid/parts shedding bike to do so - AT LEAST UNTIL SOMEONE DIES as a result of allowing said circulation.
Frustrating, isn't it?

Mate in a nutshell I believe that CORRECT use and availability of the EXISTING flags will offer a solution.Also a clear UNDERSTANDING of the flags and marshal points by all concerned.
Before you get all pissed off at what I'm saying stop and think for a moment. FORGET a specific incident and remember that a Rule applied to road racing has to be the most viable option in MOST situations. Variation leads to interpretation which leads to confusion which ultimately leads to accidents.
I've seen it where what is the simplest oversight has snowballed because of other silly little mistakes and someone has died.
Which is why I'm suggesting that EVERY rider before being given a licence should have a certain knowledge base and should be tested on it.

[MSTRS:Me]

Mate in a nutshell I believe that CORRECT use and availability of the EXISTING flags will offer a solution.Also a clear UNDERSTANDING of the flags and marshal points by all concerned.
Before you get all pissed off at what I'm saying stop and think for a moment. FORGET a specific incident and remember that a Rule applied to road racing has to be the most viable option in MOST situations. Variation leads to interpretation which leads to confusion which ultimately leads to accidents.
I've seen it where what is the simplest oversight has snowballed because of other silly little mistakes and someone has died.
Which is why I'm suggesting that EVERY rider before being given a licence should have a certain knowledge base and should be tested on it.

Not pissed off. I do hear what you are saying etc. But is still frustrating that there is no viable way to get a bike to stop, clear the track and stay off, regardless of the reason why, as things stand now. Things like leaking fluids are not rare, but coupled with a rider who is perhaps not all that experienced, and won't voluntarily get off...will occassionally happen and I still feel that the issue needs to be addressed.

[FROSTY:Me]

Not pissed off. I do hear what you are saying etc. But is still frustrating that there is no viable way to get a bike to stop, clear the track and stay off, regardless of the reason why, as things stand now. Things like leaking fluids are not rare, but coupled with a rider who is perhaps not all that experienced, and won't voluntarily get off...will occassionally happen and I still feel that the issue needs to be addressed.

The "choosing to ignore bit" IMO if you had a flag that said -Hey YOU get the fuck off the track the rider would still ignore it.
Mate the way I see it is you are looking for the bottom of cliff ambulance where I feel the answer is education so the fucker doesn't fall
Now can I make a suggestion here. Ask a few experienced guys what they do when they see a -RED or a BLACK flag.
MY personal reaction is to sit up, hand up in the air and pull off the racing line.

[Kickaha]

Ask a few experienced guys what they do when they see a -RED or a BLACK flag.
MY personal reaction is to sit up, hand up in the air and pull off the racing line.

Red I would, unless the black had my number beside it I wouldn't be doing anything

[ajturbo]

The "choosing to ignore bit" IMO if you had a flag that said -Hey YOU get the fuck off the track the rider would still ignore it.
Mate the way I see it is you are looking for the bottom of cliff ambulance where I feel the answer is education so the fucker doesn't fall
Now can I make a suggestion here. Ask a few experienced guys what they do when they see a -RED or a BLACK flag.
MY personal reaction is to sit up, hand up in the air and pull off the racing line.

THAT is what i tell my SS racers... now...

and hopefully by this time next year they will remember...

[FROSTY:Me]

Red I would, unless the black had my number beside it I wouldn't be doing anything

--yep sorry dude ---black with my number by it.
Actually ya know what thinking about it if I actually SAW a black flag waved I would and HAVE pulled off the track.
I'm thinking of a specific incident at Pukie a few years back. The flaggies had ALL the flags and clerk of course requested a BLACK flag at the hairpin -I was in a group of 3 bikes that came in -the number was displayed 1/2 a track away at the start/finish.

[MSTRS:Me]

The "choosing to ignore bit" IMO if you had a flag that said -Hey YOU get the fuck off the track the rider would still ignore it.

But that is different to not having any recognised flag to get off. And can be dealt with later, under the rules, no arguments.

[FROSTY:Me]

But that is different to not having any recognised flag to get off. And can be dealt with later, under the rules, no arguments.

Sory man this is going in circles. There IS a system in place. It WASN'T used.
I have had reservations in the past about Pukie track but one thing I will say is that EVERY marshal point has a FULL selection of flags and every marshal point has two marshals.
The reason for this was demonstrated I feel really clearly of all places in the closeing stages of the Bathurst race yesterday.-A different motor sport yes -the principle applied is the same though

[MSTRS:Me]

Sory man this is going in circles. There IS a system in place. It WASN'T used.

I don't understand? Only the S/F line has black flags of any type. It's always that way, is it not? The bike in this instance wasn't haemorraging until it had passed that point. From then on, there was no officially recognised way of stopping the bike. Logic tells me that all points did the 'right thing', to no avail, but logic is not Rules, and the rider could not necessarily be faulted for ignoring us. He obviously knew (from it's performance) that the bike wasn't right, hence being off to the side, but still, assuming he was unaware of fluid leaks, he did what the rules say he should.
See my post here

[k14]

Red I would, unless the black had my number beside it I wouldn't be doing anything

Yeah and just to make things even more complicated, the way they announce a jump start is to display a black flag with a riders number on the board next to it. All it tells the rider is you will have a 20 second penalty when you finish the race. You'd be pissed off if you came into the pits thinking your bike was dodgy after that!