ACC Levies. BRONZ meeting

[Kwakajack]

Ok Some real numbers. Using data from 2006 from ACC and LTSA.

Read to the bottom before you hit the roof.

Cost per accident to ACC
ACC claims for cars = $208,343,000 in 2006. number of claims to ACC = 8529

$208,343,000 / 8529 = $24,427 Ave cost per car/pass claim

ACC claims for motorbikes/scooters = $62,545,000 in 2006.
number of claims to ACC = 3174

$62,545,000 / 3174 = $19,705 Ave cost per claim Bike/pass

So cost per accident is less than car.

But how many cars compared to bikes.

Cars registered in 2006 = 206,084
Bikes registered in 2006 = 17,248

Number of accidents requiring ACC as a percentage of registered vehicles.

cars 8529 / 206,084 = 0.041 = 4%
bikes 3174 / 17248 = 0.184 = 18.4 %

ACC cost by vehicle type.
Cost of claim / number of registered vehicle
car $208,343,000 / 206084 = $1010
bike $62,545,000 / 17248 = $3636

So here is the problem. Due to economy of scale it costs ACC over 3 times as much per bike revenue over car. even though the cost per claim is lower.

Hence one possible reason why our levies have been hiked so high.


BUT !!!!! what about the 60% of bike accidents that are caused by cars hitting bikes.

ACC is a no fault system, so if a car hits a bike, then surely it is not the bikes fault. So let's crunch the numbers again. Base on ACC claim of a no fault system.


$62,545,000 - 60% = $25,020,000
cost to ACC per bike due to bikes caused accident.
$25,020,000 / 17248 = $ 1450

tRemember form above the cost per car claim was $1010
So bikes are about 150% of the cost per car

If ACC is really a user pays system then bike reg should be 150% of a car reg. Isn't that what it is already ???

So why the hike in reg.

easy
1. it's easier to price bikes off the road than educate car drivers to stop hitting them.

2. Bikes make up less than 8% of registrations. so that's 92% less people to piss off when you hike the costs.

I would like ACC to explain their maths in raising the reg costs to 3 times that of cars. I suspect the answer is simple.
they had my 6 year old do their analisys.


http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/statistics/m.../docs/2007.pdf

http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/stati...aims/IS0800020

The question now is, how to effectively, and politically savvy way to voice our displeasure and ensure that the massive hike in rego costs is nothing more than a white elephant.

Ideas are welcome . . . . . twitter and such places has worked in UK and Europe to change political views and force action, may not be such a good idea here so what else is there, organise ALL the motorcycling population into protests, of what form?? A large politically powerful ally would be a good thing here . . . but where and who??

[KeyboardRider]

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been discussed. What will go down well is if a solution is offered... so rather than slam the occasional/safe riders why not ditch the ACC levy completely and move towards a user pays environment for bike crashes? Make insurance mandatory and make it also cover accident/injury related costs. This puts risk assessment back where it should be (with the experts in the insurance companies) in a competitive environment (rather than the ACC monopoly) with safe riders getting small premiums and spotty faced teenagers on firebreathing 250cc 2 strokes getting nailed?

Don't get me started on rugby / soccer / netball - maybe the clubs should be charged and the costs get passed onto members through their fees?

Hey Jester,
Something for you and for other people that think privatization can be a good move. I don’t know what your perspective is, however I speak from experience in another country where this is the way things are done. It has to do with “creative accountancy”, read and weep:

In a far, far away country, somewhere in the Middle East, between all the Camels and Pyramids, there was once (not so long ago) a “Civil Servant” that worked for the Treasury… However, one day a few years back, he had this “brilliant” idea – “let the insurance companies deal with all motorized insurance issues, as they are good with that stuff. We will just set the rates”. And so it was done (note that the equivalent to the ACC Levy in Israel is called Compulsory Insurance, and every vehicle is required to have one by law).

The first thing all insurance companies in Israel did was to open collectively a new company called The Pool. This company was to insure all the “troublesome” cases (because, if you recall – this is a compulsory insurance by the law). A Pool insured driver (no matter how many traffic offences, claims, or licence banning etc.) just has to pay 25% on top of the regular rate.
From that moment onwards, they could individually refuse to insure people and send them off to the Pool. Oh, and they went through their papers and decided that all motorcyclists (no matter if they never claimed a cent, had no traffic violation etc) go to the Pool as well. Why? Because they are only causing loses for them. Now, motorcyclists were not as fortunate as other road Hooligans. They got their very own “special” rate + a 25% “bonus” (this currently is based on a cc rating, and stands on about NZ$2000 for a 200+cc bike).

Now, another thing about the Pool, as one can see – it was designed to be in constant deficit, so at the end of every year, insurance companies can present the treasury with “The Alarming Figures”, have a nice meeting and go away with a promise for increased rates (for 2008 the Pools’ deficit stood on an equivalent of NZ$80 million). However, every year they “forget” to show the other side – the individual profits each company makes out of these insurance policies (for 2008 it stood on NZ$280 million in total).

And now, the person in charge of setting the rates in the Treasury has something personal against bikes. He aims to raise the rates to something like NZ$4-5k per annum. His claim is that each sector should cover itself (sounds familiar?).

So what is common to Israel and NZ in that sense? Well, the guys in charge in both places like to play with the numbers and ignore facts, like who’s fault are motorcycle accidents and in what percentage, and claim motorcyclists have to cover themselves as a sector, whereas motorcyclists insist on a fairer division of costs.

My conclusion is: leave it as it is, as it is way better than a private business that is profit oriented.

And don’t think it cannot happen here in NZ if private companies take over.

Best,
KBD.

[steelrider]

check my stats an overview of what is available on the net.

[Oxy]

I agree with the idea of changing the ACC fee's to drivers license holders rather than vehicles - after all, the vehicles aren't covered by it.

Every six months, you pay a fee depending on what vehicle classes you will drive in that period.

The only difficulty is how to police it - it's very easy to check whether a car is registered whenever it is parked in a public area.

How do you check whether a driver has paid a registration - only police can do that when they are pulled over or at a checkpoint. However if you assume most people will be honest then it should work out.

It wouldn't be that hard to police. A database is easy enough to set up that shows who's paid and who hasn't.

[jeffs]

Forget everything I wrote in my previous stats reply.

My numbers are bollux. Thanks to the great ltsa web site the numbers I used are for vehicles newly registered in 2006. Not new registrations + existing registrations as the wording implies. I will keep digging to find the total numbers of vehicles registered and on the road in NZ.

[naphazoline]

.... ACC don't care who caused a crash, only who cost them money.

If that was the case,why aren't they taxing rugby,and netball players,and horse riders,along with a whole lot of other activities listed as more costly on their statistics site?

http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/stati...aims/IS0800020

[Big Dog]

Somebody has proabably already posted this but I could not find it so here goes my repost on the subject.
http://www.acc.co.nz/for-business/le...tion/index.htm

[ldcroberts]

163 car drivers killed.
203 others killed (motorcyclists 48, cyclists 10, pedestrians 31, passengers 105, etc)

Interesting how few car drivers get killed compared to how many accidents they cause. Perhaps they should make cars less safe for the driver to make them think a little more.

[TonyB]

Can I suggest to the Mods that we have a "Read Only" BRONZ forum?.

The idea is that we can see what BRONZ is proposing by way of action, without us having to read 498 pages of pissed off bikers venting ?

Bloody good idea. There is so much posting going on at the moment its impossible to keep track.

[izzyc]

I have thought seriously about this acc shit. I think that it should be a user pays system..instead of increasing rego's how about increasing the fuel price by 5-10 cents per litre??NOW I KNOW YOU MIGHT THINK IM MAD BUT! ! ! the govt is picking on bikes/cars in rego's but statistically the most accidents happen on a skifield or a rugby field yet these guys dont pay levies...however if they drive to their particular sport/passion then they do pay [in their fuel]..im a sales rep who drives approx 1500 k's per week and yet my rego is the same as the little old lady who might drive to the supermarket once a week...why should she pay the same amount of rego as me???not really fair on her is it?,basically NZers need fuel to do what they do..how about all the boaties or motocross riders that pay NO acc levies for their choosen hobby??? if there was a fuel increase to cover the acc levies then it wont matter what your hobby/sport/lifestyle is...you pay a little more to do it..this way the govt would actually make more to cover acc rather than more bikers not paying rego at all...sure as hell i wont pay that figure! ! ! ! but i wont mind paying more in my fuel cost to do what i want to do? ! ? ! ? ! does it make sense? ? ?

[anton]

hi guy im new to this site just got my bike a week ago found my new passion and the government just had to kill the buzz for all of bikers, jsut a few adeas:

1. if anyone knows any DJs on radio or any people working there that can give us some publicity please get them involved.

2. as for protesting i agree we should keep it clean and legal, we need to show people that we not bad guys like most cagers tend to judge us, we want to appear as just ordinary people with passion for bikes and riding, hell we might even play the "green card" since bikes are much more inviromentaly cleaner(and new zealand is so anal about the environment)

3. petioning the government is another option we can get involved many people" our friends and families and co-workers will give us a great number of signatures we also can ask people from streets to sign for us, students can get signatures from unis there lots of anti-gornment folks in the student bars,
we need to get on facebook start a group of opposition of such outrageous charges increase, we need to get simpathy from everyone and they do simpisise with us we just do not have their official say in that, we need to get everyone or most of them anyway side with us, we need numbers not an angry mob but a mob with a big sign that says ""NO"""

4. they increase the charges by 250-700 dollars for that kind money you can get your own personal health insuarance and not make any claims against acc if they want to make us pay for our injuries then we should tell them to atleast exclude people from additional charges if they have a health insuarance

if i mentioned someone's ideas here please forgive me i meant no disrespect to fellow bikers

[sinfull]

Did you see Key on the news saying, awww crikey that Rodney hyde has some good ideas, yes we will think about opening ACC up to privatisation (competition) !
And you still think we can stop this by talking !!
How far is he up the Maori parties arse, awww wait, could it be that he gave in on the .... What was that he gave them not just a day or so ago ? Crikey He gave Maori TV the world cup !!!
Obvious he has Acts vote, where is he with the Maori party ?
Last nights parliment sitting was just a handshake come piss up !!
The legislation allowing them to change the ACC levies will pass !
I'm packing my slingshot !!!

I say once more Bulls, See ya's on the bridge on labour monday Arvo at 4pm !
Have ya banner saying " No to ACC Levy hikes, No to privatisation, or, Hello Americanisation !!!
T shirts and banners welcome !
I will see all you other Davids there, i'll bring My slingshot !!!
__________________

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

The question now is, how to effectively, and politically savvy way to voice our displeasure and ensure that the massive hike in rego costs is nothing more than a white elephant.

Present the case to the media first but make sure the fact are correct and not hear say or myth...

We may not like the truth... which is some of us as in bikers are our own worse enemy

[sinfull]

Present the case to the media first but make sure the fact are correct and not hear say or myth...

We may not like the truth... which is some of us as in bikers are our own worse enemy

I am my own worst enemy, because i procastinate !!
It has come to the fore that the facts our friend in parliment is spoutin are incorrect and exagerated !
Stat facts over his faulse statements and it's done !

But lets wait !!!

[popelli]

actions speak louder than words

just refuse to pay the levy and remove the rego plate and continue riding