Hi-vis vests?

[Horse]

Have a look back through the thread history on kiwibiker, and you'll see hundreds of references to something called target fixation. Wearing a Hi Vis vest may certainly make you easier to see, but in the process just makes you more of a target.

Again, your evidence for this particular alarming statement is?

A few years ago there was some research carried out in brittain

You mean research like this?

After adjustment for potential confounders, drivers wearing any reflective or fluorescent clothing had a 37% lower risk (multivariate odds ratio 0.63, 95% confidence interval 0.42 to 0.94) than other drivers.

"Hi-vis vests are bad" appears to be the Great Kiwibiker Myth #1. I also note that your argument appears to be entirely unrelated to Hitcher's assertion that Hi-vis vests are bad because they generate overconfidence in wearers.

[Jantar]

...You mean research like this?......

Very interesting. I followed that link and found an abstract of the paper, including the words you quote "After adjustment for potential confounders...".
There is no mention of just what these confounders are, or how the adjustments were made. In other words, the conclusions arrived at in this paper do not come from the raw data they worked with.

I'm in the process of reading the reviewers comments, and so far the majority appear to be dismissive of the claims.

Edit: I did find this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_safety

Conflicting findings on conspicuity
A New Zealand study supported the Hurt Report's call for increased rider conspicuity, claiming fluorescent clothing, white or light colored helmets, and daytime headlights may reduce motorcycle injuries and death. The study found that wearing reflective or fluorescent clothing reduced the risk of a crash injury by 37%, a white helmet by 24%, and riding with headlights on by 27%.[10]

However, the MAIDS report did not back up the claims that helmet color makes any difference in accident frequency, and that in fact motorcycles painted white were actually over-represented in the accident sample compared to the exposure data.[11] While recognizing how much riders need to be seen, the MAIDS report documented that riders' clothing usually fails to do so, saying that "in 65.3% of all cases, the clothing made no contribution to the conspicuity of the rider or the PTW [powered two-wheeler, i.e. motorcycle]. There were very few cases found in which the bright clothing of the PTW rider enhanced the PTW’s overall conspicuity (46 cases).

[YellowDog]

I understand your point Horse, but I must say that I don't like them at all.

I do have to wear one for work and would otherwise get fired.

My view is that you are on a highly illuminated vehicle and to draw attention away from anything other than my brake light is not a good thing.

I do agree that they certainly do give a huge side view visibility enhancement and this is where they could potentially help save lives.

[Moki]

The only measure that was statistiically significant was that there was a 37% lower risk attributed to wearing hi-vis than not. Very weak correlations with the other findings. I just had a look at the abstract-anyone know where the funding came for this study?

Personal experience indicates that there is a huge difference in visibility in all conditions. I particulalry find the yellow the most immediately apparent - sort of like "police". I can recommend the Icon Mil-spec vest on ebay. A bit pricy but very well made materials, a few decent pockets, and very good quality zips.

[I GS 1]

I think that generating ridiculous hypotheses like you become more of a target for motorists to aim at, are rather desperate attempts to not think about moving out of the comfort zone of the typical biker image. If that was really motorists' mission, I can assure you many more bikers would have been taken out. Black made a lot more sense then - but a couple of things have changed since

[vifferman]

My Macna jacket has a great hi-viz vest that came with it: it attaches to the jacket via a small zip at the back, and some loops on the front.
It doesn't flap around.
It has reflective bits on it.
It doesn't interfere with getting the jacket on and off.

Fortunately, one of the tabs started to tear because I was a bit rough with it (and being a safety vest, it didn't like that kinda behaviour )
So now I have an excuse for leaving it in the cupboard.

[Scouse]

get a job with a company that makes you wear one that way it will cost you nothing

[Bass]

Be warned that hi-vis vests are dangerous. They are dangerous because people who wear them think that they help to make themselves more conspicuous to other road users, a dangerous assumption. You should ride on the basis that other road users haven't seen you and, if they have, that they want to kill you. A hi-vis vest adds no value to that proposition.

So using this logic, I should turn my headlight off and paint the bike in camoflage?
No thanks.
I can and will continue to take every reasonable precaution that I can to aid my survival (which includes assuming that I haven't been seen).

It seems to me that many of our inmates regard some of these precautions (e.g high viz vests) as "not cool" and therefore seek excuses to justify their dislike. I actually agree - these measures are indeed "not cool". However I have gotten to an age where my survival matters more to me than other people's opinions. Hence my attitude.

[Horse]

Very interesting. I followed that link and found an abstract of the paper, including the words you quote "After adjustment for potential confounders...".
There is no mention of just what these confounders are, or how the adjustments were made. In other words, the conclusions arrived at in this paper do not come from the raw data they worked with.

To read the full text of the paper, you click on the link on the LH side that says Full Text. Sorry if that's confusing.

[no_8wire]

If any one wants a hi-vis, have a look at these - safety company in Onehunga - about 19 all up for one with reflective strips and zip front etc.

[JohnC]

As I've asked before, your evidence for this rather alarming statement is?

Common sence to start with.
Followed by the fact car drivers see riders wearing pretty vests as being wankers and therefore "no threat" to them.
Before you get out of shape at me over that,I didn't say I see them as wankers,but car drivers definately do.
I know that because of the guys I work with make that very statement every time the subject comes up.
Solid black provides the best silhouette and lights up peoples threat acessment every time.
That alone makes them hesitate for the amount of time it takes their brain time to work out the "real" logic of coping a bike through the drivers door.
People that think weareing more or brighter colours are fooling themselves,,they've just entered the world of urban camoflage and are now at more risk.
Case in point,,I wear solid black,ride a black bike,and for the last 40 years of riding I more or less always have,,,I've "never" hit a car,,and had very very few close calls that weren't a shared issue.
In the mean time the average colour concious KB'er can't get to work most days without several close calls "aways" the other partys fault.
It shouldn't take much to work it out,,,,you scare the crap out of people,,,they keep the fuck away from you,,,,,,and Nobody in a day glo vest is scary.

[Hitcher]

So using this logic, I should turn my headlight off and paint the bike in camoflage?

If it made you more alert and responsive as a rider, I would recommend it highly.

A fluoro vest won't soften your impact.

[p.dath]

If it made you more alert and responsive as a rider, I would recommend it highly.

A fluoro vest won't soften your impact.

If it stopped the impact from happening in the first place then that would be a great solution.

Protection is a bit like a dice. Many possible outcomes with different solutions. Know the risks, decide what risks concern you the most, and then take steps to mitigate them.

EDIT: ps. That last comment isn't directed at Hitcher, it's a general statement.

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

At the end of the day if a car driver can not see a bike 200 metres away whether they are wearing a vest or not then simply put they should not be on the road.

Any line man or cop with tell you after the 200 odd metre they make no difference and just blur into the back ground of the fast moving colours of the modern world. eyes are over compensating with bright colours glaring headlights of bikes and now many cars..

[Horse]

Any line man or cop with tell you after the 200 odd metre they make no difference and just blur into the back ground of the fast moving colours of the modern world. eyes are over compensating with bright colours glaring headlights of bikes and now many cars..

Except, and this is the important point, the research says this is simply not true, and hi-vis vests do make a small but statistically significant difference in the likelihood of you being involved in a crash. Anecdotal stories about what your wife's brother's mate thinks are irrelevant.