Minto

[Jantar]

You seem to conveniently forget that israel didn't exsist untill after ww2 when the americans took pity on the poor jews from aushwits, belsen and other places, so occupied some land in Palistine and gave it to the jews. so no wonder the Palistinians are getting a bit grumpy and lobing misiles at them, you would too if your land was taken forceably. to this day the jews play on the guit of the Europeans, and the americans let them do just what they want ("no no we can't reprimand the jews cos Hitler gave them such a hard time during ww2 so we will turn the other way and pretend they are not doing the same to the Palistinians")

Even if this was true, what does this have to do with a lone female tennis player who wasn't even born during WW2?

[cs363]

Even if this was true, what does this have to do with a lone female tennis player who wasn't even born during WW2?

Exactly! Nuff said.

[rachprice]

Yeah but how many times can you say he is a twat (which he is) and he is wrong for attacking one sports person??

I am actually really interested in reading all the opinions of the matter behind it.

I still think its the wrong approach to look for the 'good' guy and the 'bad' guy in this situation, two wrongs don't make a right

[phred]

Now that I agree with Maki, I started this thread with that view point, he got about 12 seconds on TV so his job is done. Maurice Williamson had a go at him outside the complex, I think its the first time have agreed with him also.

Some Middle Eastern Country's have hated each other for hundreds of years, and it will continue to be that way for years to come, we as a peaceful Nation should embrace any visitor, not protest against them.

You mean Maurice Williamson actually did something????? Finally the voters of Pakuranga get a result.

[phred]

I
I still think its the wrong approach to look for the 'good' guy and the 'bad' guy in this situation, two wrongs don't make a right

Yes but two rights made an airplane.

[Winston001]

I don't like Minto and generally don't agree with him - certainly not on this occasion.

However I do admire people who are prepared to get up in public, often taking unpopular stances (as with South African rugby tours) and have the courage to speak out. We need people like this. Without protesters change in our society and the free exchange of ideas would be very slow. So disagree with John Minto by all means but let's at least respect his right to protest - much as it sticks in my throat to say that.

[Skyryder]

I don't like Minto and generally don't agree with him - certainly not on this occasion.

However I do admire people who are prepared to get up in public, often taking unpopular stances (as with South African rugby tours) and have the courage to speak out. We need people like this. Without protesters change in our society and the free exchange of ideas would be very slow. So disagree with John Minto by all means but let's at least respect his right to protest - much as it sticks in my throat to say that.

This post comes as close as it gets to my own philosophy of tolerating differing opinions regardless if I believe in them or not.

Much of what we value today has come about by individuals being prepared to stand up and be counted. Sometimes at great cost to themselves and their families. The 40 hour working week was at one time considered a radical view and was first bought in for the benefit of those who belonged to carpenters Union. So too was the vote for woman and those that took to the streets suffered much the same hostility then as those that advocate a position outside of society’s norm today'

Radicals, extremists, call them what you will, move society in a direction that without their input would remain static. Not all radical ideas take root in the grass roots of society. In most cases a modification of the original idea becomes more acceptable for public opinion.


Those ideas that do take hold become the groundswell of public opinion that may or may not be taken up by the political parties of the day. Ideas are either accepted or rejected or modified over a period of time.

Minto, Bradford, Davies, Hart, hell even Douglas and Prebble promote ideas that society debates for the good or ill of its welfare. We don’t have to believe in them but without the import of radical ideas and their beliefs society would be poorer for it.

Skyryde

[davereid]

You seem to conveniently forget that israel didn't exsist untill after ww2 when the americans took pity on the poor jews from aushwits, belsen and other places, so occupied some land in Palistine and gave it to the jews. so no wonder the Palistinians are getting a bit grumpy and lobing misiles at them, you would too if your land was taken forceably. to this day the jews play on the guit of the Europeans, and the americans let them do just what they want ("no no we can't reprimand the jews cos Hitler gave them such a hard time during ww2 so we will turn the other way and pretend they are not doing the same to the Palistinians")

Thats because thats not how it happened. Not even close.
It wasn't someone elses land.
Until WW1 it was part of the Ottoman empire.
You know, the lot that make the uncomfortable sofas, rugs that curl at the ends, and dodgy takeaways.

The arabs and the the jews BOTH lived there in complete disharmony. When WW1 arrived, both the arabs and the jews saw a prospect for liberation, and sided with the west.

Who in spite of our best efforts at Gallipoli triumphed.

So at the end of WW1 the brits were the last man standing, and were left holding two very ugly and grumpy babies.

10 years later, arabs started openly butchering jews in Hebron, and over the next 15 years (delayed only by WW2) the brits started separating the two tribes.

At the end of WW2 the brits had had enough, and had run out of money anyway, so invited the UN to sort it out.

The UN did nothing - it DIDNT create Israel, it just pissed around, leaving the area partitioned.

In 1948 the brits sold the remainder of their war machinery, spitfires, etc to arab states outside of the partitioned area, and booked a ship home. It would appear the idea was to let them sort it out among themselves, and as the jews were not in possession of spitfires or tanks, the outcome seemed sorted.

The Jews then proclaimed Israel, the day before the brits left.

The predicted war came, and to everyones surprise the jews won.

Then who kept the war going ? The arabs did.

1948 Israel formed.
1948 Invaded by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq - who lost.
The Arabs were well armed. The Brits had sold them spitfires, and the balance of the British war equipment used in the middle east.

They didnt sell anything to Israel.

In fact the US and the Brits embargoed aircraft and war equipment sales to Israel. Hardly sounds like "support".

1949-1950 Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip.
Israel still embargoed by US and Brits.

1950-1956 continuous war with Egyptian fedayeen from Gaza strip
Israel still embargoed by US and Brits.

1948-1952 In Libya, Jews were deprived citizenship, and in Iraq, their property was seized.
Israel still embargoed by US and Brits.

1956, Egypt, in an act of war, closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, and blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba, in contravention of the Constantinople Convention. Israel responded on October 29, 1956, by invading the Sinai Peninsula with British and French support. During the Suez Canal Crisis, Israel captured the Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula.

Yep, before this event, and after, the US and Britisn stopped arms sales to Israel.

1967, Egypt deployed 100,000 soldiers in the Sinai Peninsula. It again closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, returning the region to the way it was in 1956 when Israel was blockaded.

1967, Arab leaders met in Khartoum in response to the war, to discuss the Arab position toward Israel. They reached consensus that there should be:
No recognition of the State of Israel.
No peace with Israel.
No negotiations with Israel.


1967, Jordan entered into the mutual defense pact between Egypt and Syria intending to destroy Israel. The Israeli Air Force (IAF) destroyed most of the surprised Egyptian Air Force, then turned east to pulverize the Jordanian, Syrian and Iraqi air forces. At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, eastern Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.

Israel still couldnt reliably buy US or British equipment. And the French, who had been paid for Mirage jets and patrol boats kept the money, but never delivered the kit. Hardly sounds like support

1969, Egypt initiated the War of Attrition, with the goal of exhausting Israel into surrendering the Sinai Peninsula.

1973, Syria and Egypt attacked Israel on Yom Kippur, initially overwhelming the surprised Israeli military.
When Israel had turned the tide of war The United States,secured a ceasefire on October 25

Only one side can stop this conflict, its the arabs.

But Islam is a religion of peace. Cat Stevens said so.

[Skyryder]

Yes but two rights made an airplane.

Wright........ Aye they did good sir.


Skyryder

[peasea]

Only one side can stop this conflict, its the arabs.

But Islam is a religion of peace. Cat Stevens said so.

No point in quoting your whole post (which was a ripper by the way) but I have to agree with you.

[cs363]

No point in quoting your whole post (which was a ripper by the way) but I have to agree with you.

I'll second that! Pass the jug please

[peasea]

I'll second that! Pass the jug please

Sure, here you go............

[Scouse]

I don't like Minto and generally don't agree with him - certainly not on this occasion.

However I do admire people who are prepared to get up in public, often taking unpopular stances (as with South African rugby tours) and have the courage to speak out. We need people like this. Without protesters change in our society and the free exchange of ideas would be very slow. So disagree with John Minto by all means but let's at least respect his right to protest - much as it sticks in my throat to say that.

Exactly the 1981 protests against the springbok tour probably did more to efect chainge in south africa than most realise, so like it or not Minto has probably had a positive effect on improving race relations during our lifetimes he probablly shoud be nominated for a Nobel peace prize, but alas unless you have the profile of Barak Obama it just wont happen. I also personaly do not like Minto but acknolage that he has influenced how a generation think about race relations.

[Brian d marge]

Well I was on the Lancaster park one ( on tv at the time!) , and even then I realized that banning a Rugby match in NZ would make SFA of difference , I was Just there for the Biff! ,

NO Maggie Thatcher and no Government OI OI

Then I grew Up and got learned , and started Hectoring You lot to get of your comfortable arses and fight for , well Godzone , to put it bluntly !

The Minties of the world , are the instigators , but the real changes comes from a movement of people ... as in PLURAL

Stephen

[Lias]

Exactly the 1981 protests against the springbok tour probably did more to efect chainge in south africa than most realise, so like it or not Minto has probably had a positive effect on improving race relations during our lifetimes he probablly shoud be nominated for a Nobel peace prize, but alas unless you have the profile of Barak Obama it just wont happen. I also personaly do not like Minto but acknolage that he has influenced how a generation think about race relations.

You have got to be fucking kidding.. Minto should be put in (whatever replaced Lake Alice) & left to rot... hes a certified raving madman.