What a knob: Came off today

[Mom]

Sorry, but NO in line four has "huge engine braking." Or , indeed , any significant degree of engine braking at all. A big single, yes. A V twin , maybe . A four, no. A change down on an IL4 without blipping is possible. On a single or twin, no, not so.

Ixion, my bike has wonderful engine braking. Seriously, if you want to use the engine for an anchor, then an inline 4 will deliver. Yes, not as good as a single pot will give you, compression locking the rear wheel on them things is easy. I have never managed to lock the rear on my bike changing down (thank goodness) but I can rely on it slowing me down for certain.

[CHOPPA]

Best advice if it happens again mate just grab some clutch, it will let the wheel spin and get some traction back.

[p.dath]

Blip the throttle? Dont get me wrong I fully understand what you are talking about and use that from time to time myself, but it is not something I do every corner, every time. I ride a robust IL4, that has huge engine braking. I use that engine braking all the time. Interesting comment about maintaining high revs entering a corner so you can power out easily, I tend to enter a corner at a speed that I know I can power out of, selecting the correct gear is paramount for this to happen.

It sounds to me like you compression locked your rear wheel by changing down very quickly and dropping the clutch in the process ( I see where the throttle blip is important in your riding style) May I respectfully suggest you engage the services of a mentor and get some riding tips and advice on how to smoothly select the correct gear to approach a corner that allows you to power through and exit cleanly without "blipping" and heaven forbid biting the tarmac. I would be happy to go for a ride with you, but there is an active mentor program on KB you should perhaps investigate. Look for the :Me after names and you are away

Glad to hear you are unscathed.

I am naive next to your knowledge, so I read your post with careful consideration and great respect.

I am not familiar with compression lock, so I need to read about this. I observed it as the rear wheel snaking, and my limited knowledge led me to believe I locked the rear wheel up.

I do use a mentor, and I never used to blip the throttle. The mentor got me into this practice after observing my riding - and it really helped. It makes the bike substantially more stable when changing down. I would not go back to not-blipping the throttle now. The difference is huge. I don't know about other bikes. Perhaps blipping is not as important on low revving bikes.
And they have helped me a lot with gearing, cornering, cornering lines, entry speed - really the hole thing. Because for the huge improvement I can feel, I know the advice they have given me has been good. It has really helped.

[p.dath]

Ixion, my bike has wonderful engine braking. Seriously, if you want to use the engine for an anchor, then an inline 4 will deliver. Yes, not as good as a single pot will give you, compression locking the rear wheel on them things is easy. I have never managed to lock the rear on my bike changing down (thank goodness) but I can rely on it slowing me down for certain.

The Keith Code books I have read agree more with Ixion on this one. They say to avoid using the engine for braking. They say to use the brakes for braking.

I wasn't changing down to try and slow down. I was selecting a gear that would allow me to maintain positive throttle throughout the corner, and power out easily.

[bikemike]

The Keith Code books I have read agree more with Ixion on this one. They say to avoid using the engine for braking. They say to use the brakes for braking.

I wasn't changing down to try and slow down. I was selecting a gear that would allow me to maintain positive throttle throughout the corner, and power out easily.

Pretty sure all the instruction I ever received said the same; brakes are for braking, engine is for going.
And this is where the smarts come in, because other threads will wax lyrical about how you can ride smoothly and zen-like by not touching your brakes.
Of course, you do use the brakes for braking, and you can also ride smoothly whilst using plenty of brakes.
Also, you do use your engine for going, but you can use it for controlled descent, or for tail-off deceleration when the brakes have done their job.
I have had this skipping when riding briskly, and it has always been because I changed down too harshly whilst still braking (even on my R1200GS - not all the dive is eliminated with the tele-para lever suspension), or, by accidentally leaving a little of throttle on when braking hard.

Glad you are OK, and contrary to what you said earlier, sounds like you have learned from it.
I think the poster suggesting track time was having a play? non?

[jared]

uh, is anyone else wondering what 'blip' means?

[steve_t]

I guess it would make an interesting poll. When you're riding at 100km/h and come to a stop sign do you:

a) brake and change down through the gears letting the clutch out at each gear change
b) brake and pull in the clutch until you basically stop in 5th or 6th and clunk through the gears to 1st after you've stopped
c) brake and pull in the cluch and click down through the gears but never letting the clutch out
d) work your way down through the gears using engine braking and use the brakes only towards the end of the process to stop
e) something else

[quickbuck]

uh, is anyone else wondering what 'blip' means?

Ummm,
Nope.

It means he gives the throttle a twist to increase engine revs to match the lower gear.
This reduces the chances of the engine braking locking the rear....

[quickbuck]

I guess it would make an interesting poll. When you're riding at 100km/h and come to a stop sign do you:

a) brake and change down through the gears letting the clutch out at each gear change

......

b) you will be bloody lucky to get the gearbox to do that! And you shouldn't.... Unless in an emergency situation.
c) Again, there is a good chance of locking the box up.... But again, a technique you would use if you were really hauling to a stop fast.
d) brakes are for braking, engines for going.....

[howdamnhard]

I wish I could say I've learnt something from the experience. I can't say I have. That's the worst bit. I'd approach the corner again at the same speed and in the same way. Just need to make sure I don't fuck up the blip next time.

Well at least your okay. Next time try changing down earlier and use the clutch if the back locks up.

Good luck with get your bike sorted out.

[OutForADuck]

Hey dude,
sorry to hear you binned it. But we have all binned it at some stage and often its part of the learning curve. We active work and progress to try to avoid learning stuff by means of costly repairs either to bike or ourselves but as has been qouted a bit in this thread.... Shit happens.

I guess you have had re-enforced that when you pick up the speed/rev/entry speed etc you need to also pick up the co-ordination and attention. Does sound like you were riding well and muffed the down change, at a speed of down change (i.e. chaning down agressively as you enter a corner) where you needed that shift to be smooth and well controlled.

Going much slower with lower revs on the 600 it would have forgiven your mistake.
Not having gravel you probably would have got away with the mistake and a lesson about not drifting off whilst keeping the pace up.
If you had had this happen more often (had sideways skills) you "might" have still ridden through it.

Bottom line despite alot of criticism you have just fallen into the old trap of accidents are not caused by one thing but by a lot of things coming together... you'll make mistakes and get away with them (we all do) but sometimes things will compound and you'll be able to trace it all back to a series of fuck ups.

Sounds like, you weren't paying enough attention, you'rd slowed down your responses but not your pace, you did not noticed the gravel (or couldn't) you tried to power through the slide when you probably would have been best to just get the wheel turning and settled (sort of doing the right thing... but perhaps too aggressively, again without gravel might have fot away with it).

BTW, I was riding with p.dath before he headed home and had this Lesson. He was riding really welll, shifting well, controled and in the right position on the road. He was not making mistakes or riding like a madass tosser. We were on a paced ride but with a couple of dual purpose bikes and keeping speed pretty much within legal limits.

Again Sorry to hear dude... glad you walked away withou too much damage... Oh and if you had not worked it out last night... you WILL be hurting by today!!! bouncing does that

[davebullet]

Choppa's advice sounds good. Just grab the clutch to free the wheel of any engine braking effect and let it find traction again.

I only have the skills to use engine braking in a straight line. I find braking control harder via the clutch (via engine braking) vs. normal brakes. Where I use it is when I see slower traffic ahead (throttle off in current gear). I figure I'm also going to get more life out of my gearbox and clutch if I don't rely on engine braking all the time.

In a proper emergency, I'm not skilled enough to downshift, match revs (to avoid the lockup), release clutch smoothly and safely as well as the normal front and back braking thing.

I know you said you were changing down entering the corner, but sounds like you might have left it a little late with a bit of lean on, causing instability? I try and get into the correct gear whilst still vertical. Then it's easier on my little brain since it has much less to organise during the corner. I have changed gear mid corner a few times (going in too slow in too high a gear), but was going at such a nana pace, that I had the time to do it smoothly.

Anyway - good to hear your gear did it's job. It's much quicker to fix a bike than a body!

[CookMySock]

I wasn't changing down to try and slow down. I was selecting a gear that would allow me to maintain positive throttle throughout the corner, and power out easily.

Well you can realistically do that in any of the higher gears. It's the selecting a really low gear and throwing the clutch at it that will lock or snake a tyre. Suggest that you don't really need 90% of the bikes' power to "power out of a corner" unless you are racing. Hehe it's good fun though. I enjoy the fattt wave of torque and the loud brrrappp of my vtwin out of corners, and I don't need copious revs for that - the main advantage of the vtwins - lots of feedback for so little effort.

a) brake and change down through the gears letting the clutch out at each gear change
b) brake and pull in the clutch until you basically stop in 5th or 6th and clunk through the gears to 1st after you've stopped
c) brake and pull in the cluch and click down through the gears but never letting the clutch out
d) work your way down through the gears using engine braking and use the brakes only towards the end of the process to stop
e) something else

Brake and blip from 6, to 5, to 4, then leave the rest to click down gently while approaching at or approaching walking speed. Unless theres chix watching, then it's essential and necessary to fully and loudly blappp it hard down through all the gears, and then crackle off at light-speed.

Steve

[boomer]

Isn't this the guy that preaches on about ART days and how good they/he is...??!

If your riding an old beat up 600 on the streets up in the 10,000 range and you don't know how to control your bike, then you're a liability to others, not only yourself.

Sounds to me like you think your riding on the track. Without the skills to to back it up

[Taz]

i guess it would make an interesting poll. When you're riding at 100km/h and come to a stop sign do you:

A) brake and change down through the gears letting the clutch out at each gear change
b) brake and pull in the clutch until you basically stop in 5th or 6th and clunk through the gears to 1st after you've stopped
c) brake and pull in the cluch and click down through the gears but never letting the clutch out
d) work your way down through the gears using engine braking and use the brakes only towards the end of the process to stop
e) something else

a .