Countersteering: Putting theory to practice, my experience

[Eyegasm]

Well, All I can say is now I get it.

After watching the Video put up by DB I now understand all this countersteering stuff.
Went for a ride and tried it on a straight, then tried it on a corner. I now see how you get better
lean into a corner. Don't know if I was doing it before but it felt better to do than what I was previously
so I might not have been.

Or I was just paying more attention to my turning.

Cheers

[rok-the-boat]

That vid does not really explain enough. It shows it working at low speed, but really, it is unnecessary at low speed, since you can just turn the wheel where you want to go without counter-steering at all. Also, the main way a bike turns is like how an ice cream cone rolls in a circle on the floor. That is how the tyres are designed. When you lean, you are putting the bike on a cone and it turns, and this is enough for most people. It also explains why front and rear tyres need to match, otherwise the back might try to overtake the front, or vice-cersa, if you get what I mean. And finally, if you can't get your heavy 1980's bike down in a corner at speed, counter-steering is the answer. And unlike as shown in that vid, you do not turn the 'wrong way' for a moment to get it down: at high speed, you need constant pressure on the bar nearest the ground to give you constant counter steer to keep the bike down. If you don't apply constant pressure the bike will right itself and you won't get around the corner. If you can't make this work (I mean - get a good feel for it) you ain't goin' fast enough, and if so, you may not know what you are doing, and might kill yourself trying. If you have a light bike with a small 16" front wheel, you probably don't even need to do this and if you try it you'll fall off unless you are going around a tight bend at high speed. It can also be useful as a skill to avoid an object - instantly - when travelling at slow or high speed in a straight line - but you have to train it with care as one twitch of the bars will soon send you off the road (twitch one way, then reverse, to get back on track). Be careful - it is not a game. For super extreme counter-steer, try speedway style, off road of course. Now that is a lark.

[KiWiP]

And what about the traction circle?

I'd ignore that one as well it is even more of a mish-mash of collective ignorance

The only force is towards the center of the curve This is provided by the friction between you and the road. The amount of friction is given by the velocity you're travelling at, your mass and the radius of the curve. There is a limit to this. Go beyond this and you lose friction, i.e you stop going round and go straight (bing-bang-bong)

Another interesting point to note is that if you change speed in a corner then something else must change, either friction, radius of corner or mass. This I think you know by experience. Open the throttle before you exit and you will drift out (change radius) or lose the back end (lose friction). As an experiment when you are going round a corner and you feel the back end going trying pushing your pillion off. This will reduce the mass and so you should get friction back and probably be able to go faster.

Now stop talking at the back and get on with your work

[mister.koz]

How has the theory of steering a bike helped anyone practice? All it does is force you to think at what you are doing at that exact point, instead of instinctively being three steps ahead.

Pretty sure I can live with not winning this argument, enjoy.

After learning and practicing the principles of counter-steering (from a couple of books) i found that i was utilizing it better rather than coming out the other end of a corner thinking "wicked, wonder how i got through that without effort" knowing how counter-steering works has also helped me avoid gravel, potholes, cowshit and other threats by adjusting my line (its a last resort) using counter steering.

You're right tho, too much theory and not enough knowledge can leave you baffled by science...

One of the books i read on riding said that you need to gain enough instinctual knowledge so when something goes differently you don't need to think you can just act.

[Mikkel]

I'd ignore that one as well it is even more of a mish-mash of collective ignorance

I'd be careful about labelling something ignorance - at least I'd strive very hard to make sure I wasn't guilty of same...

So going round a corner is governed by your velocity squared and your mass. So a small increase in speed pitches you much closer to the breakaway point (but you knew that). What you might not have considered is your mass (bike and you) has a major impact. If you are a fat bastard following a skinny runt and you are on the same setup don't expect to go round corners at the same speed. Fatties will slide earlier than skinnies.

Thus, I put to you the questions: "What provides the lateral force that allows you to turn in the first place?", "How does this depend upon the mass of the object being considered?"

I'll give you a hint: fatties will not slide earlier than skinnies. You should be able to work out why this is if you think about it for a second.

Pretty sure I can live with not winning this argument, enjoy.

There really is no argument to win. The world behaves in a certain manner, and that manner does not change depending upon what people believe.

I am all with you though - understanding the theory behind this doesn't make you a better rider and spending time thinking too much about it while riding is not advisable. However, it might help you understand why things behave as they do - counter-steering defies common sense, i.e. it is counter-intuitive.

[Headbanger]

How has the theory of steering a bike helped anyone practice? All it does is force you to think at what you are doing at that exact point, instead of instinctively being three steps ahead.

Pretty sure I can live with not winning this argument, enjoy.

You must then find it difficult to learn,develop and improve skills if you believe its a case of doing something over and over and over with no concept of what you are doing or why you are doing it.

[mctshirt]

You must then find it difficult to learn,develop and improve skills if you believe its a case of doing something over and over and over with no concept of what you are doing or why you are doing it.

I have no concept what i am doing or why I am doing it.
I do know riding a motorcycle scratches an itch.
I do know I don't need to ride like Rossi to enjoy the ride.
I do know there's not a pile of wrecked motorcycles on every corner.

[Headbanger]

I have no concept what i am doing or why I am doing it.
I do know riding a motorcycle scratches an itch.
I do know I don't need to ride like Rossi to enjoy the ride.
I do know there's not a pile of wrecked motorcycles on every corner.

Rubbish, You have the capacity to understand the basic mechanics of what you are doing, and are able to refine how you do them how you do them, applying the brake for instance. And you have learned plenty from reading threads such as this one and I'm certain your subconscious has taken it on board even if you are in denial.

Takes a strange breed to claim that ignorance is the preferred state, But there ya go, Each to their own.

[Drew]

You must then find it difficult to learn,develop and improve skills if you believe its a case of doing something over and over and over with no concept of what you are doing or why you are doing it.

I feel compelled to reply, but I know I am not going to convey what works for me very well.

I have learnt a great deal about riding, through many different methods. I have learnt NOTHING of how to ride, via the internet.

[Conquiztador]

Well here a thought to the ones stating that they do not use countersteering, or that they are sure they use it but have never worried about it: Try practicing it in a corner on a traffic free road. If you focus on putting pressure on the inside handlebar (pushing it the wrong way) you will find that you can ride around the corner with higher speed and you do not have to wrestle the bike. I love doing this when I travel Napier-Taupo. When I hit the straights coming closer to Taupo I often consider turning around just so I can do more of it.

[rok-the-boat]

Well, was bored today so, while zooming around on my Jetski I thought - let's try it. Well, it nearly spat me off! Nope, counter steering definitely does not work on a Jetski. It rides more like a sidecar ...

[Pixie]

Well, since I have been back on a bike from a 10 year hiatus I have been hearing this term flung about . Countersteering.
I have never really known what it involved so a few weeeks back I googled it and youtubed it. There is a vast amount of practical info to be found on this new fangled interweeb thing. The gist of it I found out is if you push say the left bar the bike leans to the left and thus starts turning to the left, and of course the same is said of the right. I think as a rider I have been doing this on a small scale anyway subconciously.

Well, I have been practicing this over the last few weeks trying to get my head around how hard you need to countersteer to get a desired effect. Tonight whilst riding back from Palmy to Otaki a hare bounded across the road with the intention of taking on my front tyre. Instincts got the better of me and I countersteered to the left to miss the hair by a hairs breadth (excuse the pun folks).

So Putting theory into practice enough times has made countersteering a skill that I can now safely apply to my riding, not to mention possibly saving my skin and definately saving a bunnies arse!

You always did it.
It is necessary at all speeds.
It is,of course, the only way bikes are steered:

The No BS (Body Steering) Machine... Thats Correct Brothers It shouldn't be alarming to me that riders still question how to steer their motorcycles but it is.

Apparently, even after 90 years when it was first observed by the Wright brothers some confusion remains on this subject . Yes, their first engineering attempts were as bicycle manufacturers; the very observant brothers determined that tandem (one wheel in front of the other) wheeled vehicles counter steer. That was and still is correct.

Maybe there was something in it after all. I hate to miss anything. The Experiments For my part, experimenting with pressure on the pegs, the tank, adjusting my body mass and combinations of all three on the bike resulted in nothing I would consider steering. In other words, something that could be used in an emergency maneuver or to aggressively flick the bike into a corner or through a set of esses. Eventually I arrived at a potential solution to my questions that would eliminate my opinions and/or misunderstanding on the subject.

The Solution ...... Make a bike that has two sets of bars. One set as normal, the other set would be solid mounted to the frame so they were not connected to and did not rotate the forks........ This, as my theory went, would answer the question. And it does.

The Machine ..... one of our Kawasaki ZX 6Rs and solid mounting a set of bars 8" above the standard ones would positively isolate the various body shifting from the countersteering. If body-steering had any effect it would be simple to show it. I created a bike with that setup. One necessary detail was to mount an additional throttle on the upper, solid mounted, bars so the bike's stability could be maintained as the user rode down the road. So we wound up with two sets of handlebars and two operating throttles on the bike.

Machine Dirty Exceptions Before I go any further, ......... I want to address off-road motorcycles. An off-road motorcycle will easily steer by pressing down on the inside peg, and in conjunction with shifting the upper body mass, will go over pretty easily . Still not what I would call good control but it can be done fairly efficiently. Again, I am not a true tech guy but it occurs to me that the small contact patch on knobbies or dual sport tires and dirt bike steering geometry, which is not intended to provide an enormous amount of stability at speed, contribute to the reasons why steering results from weight shifts to the degree it does on a dirt bike. No Body Steering.

At this writing, we have run nearly 100 riders of all experience levels on this double barred bike. It has made believers out of every single one in the actuality of countersteering of course. At 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not.

The Bottom Line Steering a motorcycle results from the process of pushing the inside bar forward, the same angle and direction the forks rotate in the steering head bearings. You can also pull on the outside bar. You can do both push and pull. That is what turns it, that is all that turns it with any degree of accuracy, efficiency, quickness or smoothness. That and only that, No BS.

Keith Code


Read more:http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html

[Pixie]

Also, the main way a bike turns is like how an ice cream cone rolls in a circle on the floor. That is how the tyres are designed. When you lean, you are putting the bike on a cone and it turns,

More,often voiced bullshit,If this was the case then bikes fitted with car tyres or square classic bike tyres could not be steered,and this is certainly not the case.

[Drew]

I am perplexed at what Keith says here. Since it's quite easy to ride along with no hands on the bars and negotiate turns. Chris Pfeifer manages to do no handed, full lock circles and drag a hand on the ground at the same time.

A bike can be turned without any pressure on the bars, Keith is WRONG.

Oddly, (or perhaps obviously), the trick to it is leaning your body back. It kinda makes sense to lean back since you are leaning into the turn, perhaps this is what allows the front wheel to steer out from under you and make the bike lean.

Certainly not something that helps in an emergency situation, but very doable anyway.

[p.dath]

I am perplexed at what Keith says here. Since it's quite easy to ride along with no hands on the bars and negotiate turns. Chris Pfeifer manages to do no handed, full lock circles and drag a hand on the ground at the same time.

A bike can be turned without any pressure on the bars, Keith is WRONG.

Oddly, (or perhaps obviously), the trick to it is leaning your body back. It kinda makes sense to lean back since you are leaning into the turn, perhaps this is what allows the front wheel to steer out from under you and make the bike lean.

Certainly not something that helps in an emergency situation, but very doable anyway.

This is probably the most convincing article I have read about the fallacy of body steering, and why you need to lean to steer:
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php