So you're saying a bike cannot be ridden no hands?
Never said it didn't involve counter steering, all I said was this. "A bike does not turn, with body positioning alone", is an incorrect statement. It can clearly be turned with nothing more than body input.
Ok it is easily proven.
Find yourself a nice straight downhill section of road.Head down it in a high gear so that engine braking does not slow you down too quickly.
Once going, place your hands on the tank,and do what ever you want,throw your weight this way and that,push down on the pegs,what ever.
If you can make the bike do more than wobble or take on a very wide arc let us know.
Better still, if you can steer the bike in this manner through a slalom of cones and can do it in front of me,I will give you $1000.
I grow tired of repeating myself. I am not making stuff up. I am not saying I can do something no-one else can do. I'm saying a bike can be turned with our hands off the bars.
It is harder with your hands on the tank, possibly because your weight stays more forward than when leaning back.
I tried a bit of this pushing and pulling on the bars Saturday on an early morning ride. I came to the conclusion I'd never really thought about it, I just did it naturally as part of steering a bike.
I do remember the first time I took a Mach4 Kawasaki to Levin Race circuit, It wobbled so much I had turned the central steering damper up really tight during the race. Coming back into the pits I very nearly fell off the thing the steering would not turn ! I had to come to a stop. Unnerving at the time. G.
I saw a great photo in a mag a few months back, that was talking about 'steering'. It was a 250 GP, Mika Kallio was one rider with two others all line astern. 1st bike was in the turn witht the front wheel pointing into the turn. 2nd bike was mid entry and the front wheel was pointing slightly outwards. The bike at the back however was just initiating the turn and the front wheel was pointing way outside of the turn! Looked like he was losing it or in the middle of a tank slapper! Was a great shot and graphically showed how extremely the top racer guys use this to their advantage.
Do us all a favour, by bringing yourself up to speed, before pulling onto the motorway.
I tried a bit of this pushing and pulling on the bars Saturday on an early morning ride. I came to the conclusion I'd never really thought about it, I just did it naturally as part of steering a bike.
I do remember the first time I took a Mach4 Kawasaki to Levin Race circuit, It wobbled so much I had turned the central steering damper up really tight during the race. Coming back into the pits I very nearly fell off the thing the steering would not turn ! I had to come to a stop. Unnerving at the time. G.
My Titan 500 was the same, had to have the centre steering damper so tight to corner it, the thing was hard to ride in a straight line. Due to not being able to weave from side to side at low speed.
Alright, let's stop the non-sense. Drew is correct, you can affect a change of direction without using counter-steering. I've done so myself and I have seen it done plenty of times.
And no, it will never be viable substitution for proper steering - which relies on the counter-steering effect.
Anyone who claims otherwise should take the time to watch the bit starting at 1:50 in this video:
It is preferential to refrain from the utilisation of grandiose verbiage in the circumstance that your intellectualisation can be expressed using comparatively simplistic lexicological entities. (...such as the word fuck.)
Remember your humanity, and forget the rest. - Joseph Rotblat
Alright, let's stop the non-sense. Drew is correct, you can affect a change of direction without using counter-steering. I've done so myself and I have seen it done plenty of times.
And no, it will never be viable substitution for proper steering - which relies on the counter-steering effect.
Correct. Try using body-steer, with hands off the bars, at 'higher' speeds and see how tight you CAN'T turn the bike.
The speed you are rolling at, coupled with the steering geometry of your particular bike, will determine just what sort of turn radius is achieveable.
And if you reckon you are doing the body-steer at road speeds, but with your hands on the bars, then like it or not, you are still counter-steering through the bars.
Last edited by MSTRS; 1st February 2010 at 16:25.
Do you realise how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?
Correct. Try using body-steer, with hands off the bars, at 'higher' speeds and see how tight you CAN'T turn the bike.
The speed you are rolling at, coupled with the steering geometry of your particular bike, will determine just what sort of turn radius is achieveable.
And if you reckon you are doing the body-steer at road speeds, but with your hands on the bars, then like it or not, you are still counter-steering through the bars.
Condescending prick aren't ya. Try and wrap your never wrong squash around this though.
The article written by Keith Code, says they were doing the experiment at 25-30mph, at those speeds it is fuckin easy to turn the bike quite noticibly with your hands off the bars. He says they could get little more than a wobble whilst holding onto the rigid bar on the bike they set up, which proves a bike cannot be steered with the body. I am saying the statement is incorrect.
I have been out playing around to figure out what happens when riding no handed, here's the skinny.
When you first lean off the side of the bike, it leans in the opposite direction. Then when you stop leaning the bike starts to come over in the same direction. It's simple physics. The initial lean of the bike steers the front wheel away from the turn, then when the bike starts to lean with you it has effectively done the same as "counter steering".
But THE WHOLE THING was done with nothing more than body positioning.
Pfft, and a mentor to boot. I pity the poor sap you're rubbing off on.
Correct. Try using body-steer, with hands off the bars, at 'higher' speeds and see how tight you CAN'T turn the bike.
The speed you are rolling at, coupled with the steering geometry of your particular bike, will determine just what sort of turn radius is achieveable.
And if you reckon you are doing the body-steer at road speeds, but with your hands on the bars, then like it or not, you are still counter-steering through the bars.
Yup. The real issue is really the speed at which you steer - not your actual rate of turn, but how quickly you can adjust your rate of turn.
Even at speed, if you hang your arse off, the bike will eventually adjust itself to accommodate the shift of the center of mass relative to the bike's contact patches. This will equate a certain turning rate, but the time it takes to reach that equilibrium, without counter steering, will see you running off the road on anything but the most gentle of bends.
The really clever thing about counter steering is that it allows you to easily tip the bike - very quickly shifting the center of mass relative to the line described by the contact patches. If you think about it - compare how long it takes for the bike to get any appreciative lean by hanging yourself off without counter steering with the lean achieved by a nearly effort-less push on one handlebar.
It is preferential to refrain from the utilisation of grandiose verbiage in the circumstance that your intellectualisation can be expressed using comparatively simplistic lexicological entities. (...such as the word fuck.)
Remember your humanity, and forget the rest. - Joseph Rotblat
Alright, let's stop the non-sense. Drew is correct, you can affect a change of direction without using counter-steering. I've done so myself and I have seen it done plenty of times.
And no, it will never be viable substitution for proper steering - which relies on the counter-steering effect.
Anyone who claims otherwise should take the time to watch the bit starting at 1:50 in this video:
What the guy in the clip is doing is well below the speed at which the inherent stability of a rotating wheel becomes the predominant force keeping the steering straight.
Any idiot knows that if you lean a bike over at low speed the front wheel will flop in the direction of the lean.
Lets see you or Chris Pfieffer do it at 50 kmh
Physics is physics
"If you think about it - compare how long it takes for the bike to get any appreciative lean by hanging yourself off without counter steering with the lean achieved by a nearly effort-less push on one handlebar."
"Like turning an oil tanker ship, start at noon and be on the turning arc at around 1:00 PM. It wasn't very smooth and it wasn't very effective."
Condescending prick aren't ya. Try and wrap your never wrong squash around this though.
The article written by Keith Code, says they were doing the experiment at 25-30mph, at those speeds it is fuckin easy to turn the bike quite noticibly with your hands off the bars. He says they could get little more than a wobble whilst holding onto the rigid bar on the bike they set up, which proves a bike cannot be steered with the body. I am saying the statement is incorrect.
I have been out playing around to figure out what happens when riding no handed, here's the skinny.
When you first lean off the side of the bike, it leans in the opposite direction. Then when you stop leaning the bike starts to come over in the same direction. It's simple physics. The initial lean of the bike steers the front wheel away from the turn, then when the bike starts to lean with you it has effectively done the same as "counter steering".
But THE WHOLE THING was done with nothing more than body positioning.
Pfft, and a mentor to boot. I pity the poor sap you're rubbing off on.
Ya what? Condescending? Prick? Poor mentor?
You, sir, seem to have a problem with comprehension.
You also seem to have a problem with keeping a bike on the track, from what I've seen of your numerous attempts at racing.
One wonders whether you might try steering with the bars, instead of your 'fabulous' body steer style. I'm sure you will find yourself staying on the track side of the tyre wall for a start.
Last edited by MSTRS; 2nd February 2010 at 07:58.
Do you realise how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?
What the guy in the clip is doing is well below the speed at which the inherent stability of a rotating wheel becomes the predominant force keeping the steering straight.
Any idiot knows that if you lean a bike over at low speed the front wheel will flop in the direction of the lean.
Lets see you or Chris Pfieffer do it at 50 kmh Physics is physics
And you apparently know naught about it. (Btw. it's physics are physics - and it's a completely banal sentence, devoid of any information, too. No more interesting, or relevant, than "Cupcakes are cupcakes" or "Rat poison is rat poison".)
And yes, "any idiot" now know that you can indeed turn a bike without using the bars - and even turn it tightly. Even you. No one ever advocated that riding no-hands is a viable approach for street riding.
"The inherent stability of a rotating wheel" is present from the second it starts turning and increases proportionally to the angular velocity. The slowest speed at which you can ride forward, without wobbling too much, is the speed at which it become the predominant force in regards to keeping you balanced.
It is preferential to refrain from the utilisation of grandiose verbiage in the circumstance that your intellectualisation can be expressed using comparatively simplistic lexicological entities. (...such as the word fuck.)
Remember your humanity, and forget the rest. - Joseph Rotblat
I don't have any issues counter steering at speeds over 30km/h but below that speed I find it very difficult.
Is this normal or do I need more practice?
Thanks.
Your observation is 100% correct. You can't counter steer or counter balance below about 30km/h. Don't know the reason. Probably something to do with the gyroscopic forces being too weak or something.
Originally Posted by Drew
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