New national school standards?

[Mully]

Has anybody looked at this in any depth and can give me a briefing of it?

As far as I can telll, it appears to be a good thing (what we've got doesn't seem to be working, so anything's worth a try).

But the Principal's Association and the Teachers Union seem to be having a Waaaaa (tm) about it - how come?

[Squiggles]

At a guess... More out of classroom work, less well rounded teaching, and the same old crap pay.

[Virago]

From what I can gather, the problem is that children are to be assessed and graded against national averages?

This will of course grade many as below average, which flies in the face of our education system, which grades all children as "above average". The entire NCEA system is based on that premise.

[Dave Lobster]

From what I've read on the internet, the implication is that below average teachers will have to pull their socks up.

They're aren't too amused at this. Understandably.. Below average people never like the idea of having to work harder or get the fuck out.

[kave]

A number of reasons for having a wah.

1. It has been tried in many countries and has been a failure (heard of "no child left behind"?).
2. Schools will be ranked in league tables (for why this is a bad thing see http://www.wellingtoncollege.org.uk/page.aspx?id=5114 ). It will encourage teaching to the exam. Schools will be fighting for higher rankings in league tables and exam preperation will come before actually teaching kids useful stuff. We already have excessive testing at primary schools.
3. If you have to do this why add useless extra bureaucracy. All you really need to do is make P.A.T testing compulsory and release the raw data to the public.

[geoffc]

Teachers have had the assessment tools to know who is 'below average' or underachieving for ages. Having the time and resources to fix these issues, well that is the challenge. Weighing the pig doesn't increase its size. Dumb but obvious statement. Same for National Standards for Primary students. It is my belief that some low decile schools will be concerned that they will be criticized for having too many below average students. Poor teaching will be the suggested cause and teachers put in the spotlight. The Government are already doing that, playing the blame game.
Identifying reading progress happens every day in Infant & Primary rooms. Running records to plot progress, note strategies used and which areas requiring focus plus the level of comprehension the student is working at. They do that now.
These new National Standards are untested and are unlikely to help those who require and need it. More paper war and less actual quality teaching time.

[Mully]

Teachers have had the assessment tools to know who is 'below average' or underachieving for ages. Having the time and resources to fix these issues, well that is the challenge.
Identifying reading progress happens every day in Infant & Primary rooms. Running records to plot progress, note strategies used and which areas requiring focus plus the level of comprehension the student is working at. They do that now.
These new National Standards are untested and are unlikely to help those who require and need it. More paper war and less actual quality teaching time.

Thanks Geoff. Had to snip some of your post cos quoting a whole post annoys me.

Devil's advocate for a second - the current system simply isn't working (going off the number of illiterate kids leaving school), so If National Standards aren't the solution, what is?

EDIT: And anyway, doesn't life grade you anyway??

Personally, I think the parents should take responsibility - but realistically that's not going to happen.

[Toaster]

From what I've read on the internet, the implication is that below average teachers will have to pull their socks up.

They're aren't too amused at this. Understandably.. Below average people never like the idea of having to work harder or get the fuck out.

Well said!! Anything that raises standards is a good thing. Teachers working to ensure education levels are higher and more relevant must be good. Every job has some form of evaluation and performance outputs nowdays.... well pretty much most..... like "quotas"..... anyone for a doughtnut?

[Pedrostt500]

Reedin Mafs nah bro I went ta skool t eat other kids lunches,

[Swoop]

NCEA is an absolute load of crap. Even in its modified version that we currently have!
This is why some schools have abandoned it and persued the Cambridge Examination structure.

That is what nine years of liarbour provides to a country.

[Squiggles]

Well said!! Anything that raises standards is a good thing. Teachers working to ensure education levels are higher and more relevant must be good. Every job has some form of evaluation and performance outputs nowdays.... well pretty much most..... like "quotas"..... anyone for a doughtnut?

Sweet, i like performance bonuses

[geoffc]

.. the current system simply isn't working (going off the number of illiterate kids leaving school), so If National Standards aren't the solution, what is?

personally, I think the parents should take responsibility - but realistically that's not going to happen.

NZ educational standards stack up very well internationally in the Primary area of Science, Maths & Literacy. There is good evidence to prove this.
However we do have a group, too many, that are falling behind. They are often in schools that the best teachers avoid. These schools will often struggle to get good parent support. Lower decile schools generally do not have the resources and clearly under achieving kids need heaps of support to make a positive difference. John Key has conceded this and is going to put some money into this.
I would like to see teachers identified that are highly skilled in classroom practice being brought into schools that are low decile to act as tutors to support, guide and enable their fellow teachers who are struggling to make headway in the toughest learning environments. That would make a difference. You are right. Parents should take responsibility but they too need examples of good practice. To be shown what they can do to help. They aren't the professionals but have the biggest stake in the learning process with their children.

[rainman]

The entire NCEA system is based on that premise.

NCEA => college age kids, Y11-13.
National standards => primary age kids, Y1-8.

Weighing the pig doesn't increase its size.

Nicely put.

Devil's advocate for a second - the current system simply isn't working (going off the number of illiterate kids leaving school), so If National Standards aren't the solution, what is?

There's the million dollar question. I personally see no point in national standards as I'm already getting heaps of info from the schools re my kids already through PAT and ASTTLe. But I understand that not all schools do these as rigorously as the schools my kids go to. Anecdotally, it seems the lower decile schools generally do worse, both at testing and at the overall results. So the solution might be (even) more resources to lower decile schools, however uncomfortable that might be with those of a less egalitarian, non-distributive bent.

Idealistically, if we didn't have such crap wages relative to the cost of living around here, parents wouldn't be so tired and focussed on work, so could help and support their kids better. Fixing that would doubtless have a better result, but would take a generation. And we'll never stick at anything for that long, particularly as the causes of low wages are more global in scope, I suspect.

The other reason teachers aren't too keen on this is that it's been introduced without a trial or any consultation, and in fact was legislated under urgency. And Tolley, who is a major liability who Key should have seen off completely with his recent reshuffle

NCEA is an absolute load of crap. Even in its modified version that we currently have!
This is why some schools have abandoned it and persued the Cambridge Examination structure.

That is what nine years of liarbour provides to a country.

See my response to Virago above. You're just being taken in by a line of spin. "Not a sheeple person" - Pffft. Try think for yourself and don't just be an "I don't like change" conservative.
My experience of NCEA is that it's pretty good, actually.

[KiWiP]

NCEA is a system used to test a student. Test what depends on the course studied. It may be skills, knowledge or even attitude and hopefully higher thinking skills and reasoning.

In this it is no different to any other testing system, Cambridge et al. Why do school kids need it? To get them into University, Technical college and in a few rare instances a job. Why employers rely on paper qualifications for literacy or numeracy is beyond me. They only show that a minimum standard was shown to have been achieved. It doesn't offer any proof that the employee will effectively read and comprehend Health and Safety regulations or Load/Height/Tilt angle graphs as required for fork lift driver training for example.

If these things are important it would be far better for the employer to set a task based test. I have done this for engineers in the past. Throw a circuit diagram in front of them and get them to tell me about it. In a very short time you are able to tell if they are a valid and confident engineer.

Within the discussion it is worth considering Swedens approach. University entrance is awarded based upon teacher recommendation and if required a non-mandatory standardised SAT paper designed to test general ability to successfully pass tertiary education. Swedish Unis have a very good reputation for churning out quality citizens.

So Mr Key thinks that by monitoring literacy and numeracy in primary/intermediate schools is going to improve things. No it will only tell us what we already know. Some kids are being failed. It does not tell us by who. Do not automatically leap to the neck of the nearest teacher teaching the kids. If it was solely their fault then it would suggest that crap teachers teach in decile 1 schools and excellent teachers teach in decile 10 schools. Because that's what Key's flawed statistics tell us.

Literacy and Numeracy are hugely important but they are not derived solely through classroom learning. Parents, communities, nutrition, pre-school stimulation, childhood nurturing, family stability, abuse, and many, many more factors contribute to the child's ultimate outcome.

As has been said before "You don't get a pig fat by weighing it" Assessment is not the answer it only tells us what we already know. What is IMHO investment in whole community learning. Working with families as a unit, investing in school infrastructure, investing in community education (which has just had it's budgets viciously slashed).

Teachers work tirelessly for less money than they could earn in the 'real world' adding dumb assessments to their already overladen workload will only lead to teachers leaving an already underpopulated teaching profession.

[Dave Lobster]

However we do have a group, too many, that are falling behind. They are often in schools that the best teachers avoid. These schools will often struggle to get good parent support. Lower decile schools generally do not have the resources and clearly under achieving kids need heaps of support to make a positive difference.

Why would they avoid them? Because the children are ferel, and it isn't a pleasant environment to work in, maybe? Can you blame anyone for that? I can't..

Maybe a better approach wouldn't be to merely pour more money in, but an approach where the parents are held accountable for poorly behaved offspring.

Either that, or the children are just thick and don't want to learn. Our money wont solve that.