"Bold steps" by the g'ment - changes announced at 2pm today

[SPman]

To be fair to Aunty Helen et al they did what they considered was the right thing - redistribution of wealth. Apparently putting aside for a rainy day doesn't occur in socialist households.....

Since when did a National Government put aside for a rainy day? National also want to redistribute wealth - upwards to those who least need it!

[Pascal]

Since when did a National Government put aside for a rainy day? National also want to redistribute wealth - upwards to those who least need it!

Since when have they had a chance? We've had 9 years of socialist tax 'n spend policies, bought elections, and pissing 9 years of the biggest surpluses this country has seen down the drain. Thank you Labour. And thank you National for having the balls to fix those damn socialist fuck ups.

[Mully]

National also want to redistribute wealth - upwards to those who least need it!

You mean to those who earn it?

Is it redistribution to let people keep their own money??

[davereid]

Since when did a National Government put aside for a rainy day? National also want to redistribute wealth - upwards to those who least need it!

It would be nice if it were that simple.
We want to live in a country where even the poorest can afford a comfortable home, food, health and education. At least I do.
The socialist seem to think this is best achieved by taking money off those who have some, and giving it to those who dont.

But this has created a nightmare.

An entire subset of New Zealanders are now entirely dependent (and very happy) on welfare. Many have never known a parent or grandparent with a job. We keep ramping up the payments, to the point where many on benefits now earn more than the workers supporting them.

Worse, we pay for this by taking money out of the pockets of those who earned it. I have drawn the analogy of being fined for speeding - and its a good analogy, as the harder you work, the more you pay. !

No tax is good. But GST is better than most.

It IS a progressive tax. Its not charged on rents, mortgages, or loans. So the more of your income that is committed to those items, the less tax you pay.

And GST captures the black economy much better than any other tax, assuming that those cash jobs result in income that is eventually spent.

New Zealand has to remain a country where we look after the weak. But we have to make sure that they are weak not just lazy. And we have to make sure that working for a living gives you a much much higher standard of living than not working.

[wbks]

Since when have they had a chance? We've had 9 years of socialist tax 'n spend policies, bought elections, and pissing 9 years of the biggest surpluses this country has seen down the drain. Thank you Labour. And thank you National for having the balls to fix those damn socialist fuck ups.

Lol, throw the socialist word around like it's a bad thing, while National amuse themselves and their mates, and you're paying more for less. Fuck, I should think that a motorcyclist who has just gone through the whole ACC thing should understand that

[wbks]

New Zealand has to remain a country where we look after the weak. But we have to make sure that they are weak not just lazy. And we have to make sure that working for a living gives you a much much higher standard of living than not working.

Sounds good, but lets make it so that you actually have to work for your higher wages, rather than just send repeat rapists and murderers to 24/7 accommodation for a few years, or slurr racism in the name of politics and get paid for it

[nallac]

You mean to those who earn it?

Is it redistribution to let people keep their own money??

About time too....

If you put in the effort and apply your self in your job to get ahead( not a head in the Clinton way) they tax you more ..
Thats just wrong..

[Mully]

If you put in the effort and apply your self in your job to get ahead( not a head in the Clinton way) they tax you more ..
Thats just wrong..

Actually, can someone who's lived overseas comment on this:

In NZ, there seems to be a "tall poppy syndrome" - those who own or run the successful businesses and get paid accordingly seem to be hated and must be taxed till they bleed.

Is this a uniquely NZ thing or does this happen elsewhere??

[SPman]

Looking at the parties labour NZ is very close in approach and leaning to labour UK.

They have been in power 'for ever' it seems also.

Yes NZ (NAT) is looking at raising GST to 15% - In the UK labour have just reversed the VAT holiday and have returned VAT to 17.5%

NZ Nat is in return cutting the top rate to 30 or 33% to compensate - UK labour have raised their top rate to 50%

in NZ stats show that the majority of people moving to OZ are the lower income earners, in the UK stats show that people on higher incomes make up the largest proportion of leavers.

So - who do you think is heading in the right direction?

When I left NZ, I was already in the top 15% of earners - and that was fuck all as it was! There are quite a few Kiwis in higher income levels who move here. The main reason lower paid Kiwis move to Aus, is because they have a better chance of earning a living wage than back home. The median income for wage and salary earners in NZ is $729 a week - $37,908 a year! How the hell do you bring up a family on that? In Aus, full-time adult ordinary time earnings are $1,200.60 pw ($62,431 pa), plus superannuation on top of that (9-10%) and the median is around $44,000 a yr.
Key's tax fiddling will do nothing for the majority of people in the bulk of the income area, between $14-48,000 p.a. (45.8%of the working population),will do a smidge for those on $48-70K (13.1 % of the working population) and lots, to those on over $70k (8.7% of the working population)

Is this a uniquely NZ thing or does this happen elsewhere??

NZ is not too bad compared to most countries, espec in Europe where top tax rates can run to over 55%. Aus top rate is 45%

[Ocean1]

Actually, can someone who's lived overseas comment on this:

In NZ, there seems to be a "tall poppy syndrome" - those who own or run the successful businesses and get paid accordingly seem to be hated and must be taxed till they bleed.

Is this a uniquely NZ thing or does this happen elsewhere??

NZ is not too bad compared to most countries, espec in Europe where top tax rates can run to over 55%. Aus top rate is 45%

My experience indicates there's a close correlation between the westeren European attitudes about business owners and their tax structures.

Both Aus and NZ are essentially the same culturally, wrt those attitudes.

It was a serious mistake, giving the pesantry the vote.

[MaxB]

Actually, can someone who's lived overseas comment on this:

In NZ, there seems to be a "tall poppy syndrome" - those who own or run the successful businesses and get paid accordingly seem to be hated and must be taxed till they bleed.

Is this a uniquely NZ thing or does this happen elsewhere??

Tall poppy syndrome is mild compared to Europe. I worked there in the 80s mainly in the UK and France. The politics of envy was like an infection. Blaming the rich was a good way to get elected. Governments that made the very rich richer generally got canned.

Be in the wrong side of town in an upmarket car and you would get a hiding. A pommie mate rode the telecoms boom of the 80s and did well enough to get a new Jag every year. But he couldn't go into town because it would get keyed or have paint srtripper poured on it. He used the wife's battered Golf instead.

I think if there is any difference it may be that most of our business people had to work hard for it. I don't begrudge Stephen Tindall or Michael Hill a cent. But I do have a big problem with the Telecom guy being paid so much for providing such shitty service.

[Winston001]

Key's tax fiddling will do nothing for the majority of people in the bulk of the income area, between $14-48,000 p.a. (45.8%of the working population),will do a smidge for those on $48-70K (13.1 % of the working population) and lots, to those on over $70k (8.7% of the working population)

Good post but I disagree with the above. At the moment 10% of taxpayers pay 73% of the total tax take. 10%!!! In an egalitarian society that is blatantly unfair. Somehow we need to rebalance this equation so the responsibility for tax is spread more fairly. Increased GST and a flat tax are by far the most simple answers, plus a reduction in the Working For Families threshold.

In fact I like Gareth Morgan's idea of a guaranteed minimum income of $10,000 each. No unemployment or sickness benefits - you get $10,000 as of right if you are not working. We'd still have the DPB but nevertheless the work of WINZ would be hugely reduced.

[mashman]

Actually, can someone who's lived overseas comment on this:

In NZ, there seems to be a "tall poppy syndrome" - those who own or run the successful businesses and get paid accordingly seem to be hated and must be taxed till they bleed.

Is this a uniquely NZ thing or does this happen elsewhere??

Everything that happens in NZ happens everywhere else (even the apathy of the people... apathy isn't just indigenous to NZ ya know... contrary to popular belief ).

If you've worked in any large corporate environment before and met those who just "want to get ahead" (just about everyone that's a manager), then you can bet your ass that the general attitude towards FACELESS business owners (and their businesses) will be negative. Shame maybe, but i'd say 9 time out of 10, if it's seen as tall poppy syndrome... then it's most probably justified.

[SPman]

In fact I like Gareth Morgan's idea of a guaranteed minimum income of $10,000 each. No unemployment or sickness benefits - you get $10,000 as of right if you are not working. We'd still have the DPB but nevertheless the work of WINZ would be hugely reduced.

That's an idea that's been around since the late 70's, at least, and has a lot of merit in it.

Somehow we need to rebalance this equation so the responsibility for tax is spread more fairly

How - have everyone pay the same tax...so a man with a wife and 2 kids earning $40k a year and having to spend every last cent of it just to survive pays the same as a single guy earning $150K a year. A lot of those on big incomes pay fuck all tax, anyway. I had an accountant mate who was buying 2 houses a year yet still qualified for a community services card, due to his "low" income. Toffee nosed insurance arseholes who, because they were wealthy and sent their kids through uni, all uni students had plenty of money - they had no conception of what it was like to work in a shitty low paying job (because that's all you can get, regardless of your qualifications). They had an air of disdain for anyone who couldn't buy a bottle of wine a night and considered every penny they "earnt" theirs, and how dare the government try and take any off them and give it to "Dole Bludgers and DPB whores" - the worst part was, you couldn't reason with them in any way. If 5% of the "lessers" were cheats, bludgers and crims, they regarded the other 95% the same. Most people don't begrudge others who have got to the top through hard graft and honest dealings - I certainly don't.
. Just as there will always be people who can make money, whatever they turn their hand to, so there will be people who work their rings out and never seem to get anywhere - a lot more than there are the others. Should they be consigned to spiral down the poverty trap, regardless. Research has shown that societies that don't have the extremes of very rich and very poor, are usually far more harmonious, happy and equitable. I don't begrudge paying any of my tax, as long as it is used wisely - if that includes evening out of the extremes of wealth and poverty, good.
Tax will always be a contentious issue - unfortunately, a fair and equitable society is also a contentious issue.

[avgas]

In NZ, there seems to be a "tall poppy syndrome" - those who own or run the successful businesses and get paid accordingly seem to be hated and must be taxed till they bleed.

Is this a uniquely NZ thing or does this happen elsewhere??

Sometimes it happens elsewhere (depends entirely to the context of the country - Chinese LOVE their bosses, and hate them). The problem with New Zealand is its double standards. We seem adament that YOU MUST GO TO UNIVERSITY......yet we hammer the shit out of them at the other end. You are considered "not part of the team" if you try to climb the ranks. Which is why most of us get stuck in the middle ground. The top will try and push us down, the bottom dont like you climbing.
I frequently do all the work to prove my worth in a company, to prove I am skilled enough to the job above me - but then you enter the "title game" where they hold you rank ransom - reapply for the job you already doing etc
In the meantime the guys at the level you are working with wil treat you as a traitor. 1 year later after you have made no progress you move on.
Employee turnover in NZ is shocking. There is almost no incetives to keep an employee and allow them to climb.
Once during an infuriating interview with a firm, the engineering manager asked me a question - I don't know what he wanted me to answer so I told the solid truth.
"Where do you see youself in 5 years time?" to which I answered "In your job".......turned out that company wanted a blind drone, so I told them honestly that I had asperations above what they wanted to give.
About 50% of the companies in NZ are like this.....all due the double standards of the employees.