Ohlins electronic suspension spotted

[sugilite:Me]

Im glad suspension techs were mentioned etc, etc

Robert, while many do not realize just how lucky we are in NZ to have such a dedicated suspension technician such as yourself offering service well beyond and above the call of accepted NZ service standards, I'm starting to feel that your responding to every blatantly obvious baiting troll is starting to hurt your well deserved good rep thus eroding your Mana so to speak. Please do keep posting your fascinating and informative tech issues, as I feel that is what adds to your status as one of the leading suspension guru's in the country. You cannot expect to educate every gray import/overseas importing misguided noodle through Kiwibiker. When these types do end up on your doorstep, help them, charge them a fair amount for your services (alluding to you constantly under charging for your services here, not the other way around) and let the results of that service do the main talking. You responding to all these trolls is getting a bit tiresome IMHO. (and when I do get enough disposable cash to resume racing, I'll be straight over to see you)

[Robert Taylor]

To be honest I thought the example I quoted was relevant to point out, just so people are forewarned of what can go wrong and what does go wrong. That is good information. I didnt give this guy a hard time at all for buying overseas and in fact gave him a bit of a deal, he went away happy but also aware that buying offshore actually cost him more money.
Yes the world is a very different place but its fair to point out the negatives of grey imports and purchasing off those who have no specific model training and / or direct access to the manufacturers.

[bogan]

so whats the theory behind electronic suspension? is it adjustable valving, adjustable preload/'spring' rate. I'm guessing it self adjusts as you ride over rougher bits or braking right?

[Marmoot]

To be honest I thought the example I quoted was relevant to point out, just so people are forewarned of what can go wrong and what does go wrong. That is good information. I didnt give this guy a hard time at all for buying overseas and in fact gave him a bit of a deal, he went away happy but also aware that buying offshore actually cost him more money.
Yes the world is a very different place but its fair to point out the negatives of grey imports and purchasing off those who have no specific model training and / or direct access to the manufacturers.

Maybe, in a different place and time. This thread is about electronic suspension, so let's stick to the topic eh?

Is it anything like what Audi has developed with magnetically-controlled suspension oil liquidity (with tiny metal particles suspended in the oil) to control the damping force dynamically?

[sugilite:Me]

OK, I will try this again. With regards to this "electronic Ohlins suspension" thread, you are actually responding to the troll, as you do in just about every single suspension thread. I did not intimate that you gave the customer a hard time either, and on top of that you confirmed your under charging ways in the same breath. If course feel free to inform customers turning up on your doorstep in 3D of the perils of gray imports etc, I just feel you do not need to do so on every single suspension thread on kb.

To be honest I thought the example I quoted was relevant to point out, just so people are forewarned of what can go wrong and what does go wrong. That is good information. I didnt give this guy a hard time at all for buying overseas and in fact gave him a bit of a deal, he went away happy but also aware that buying offshore actually cost him more money.
Yes the world is a very different place but its fair to point out the negatives of grey imports and purchasing off those who have no specific model training and / or direct access to the manufacturers.

[bogan]

Maybe, in a different place and time. This thread is about electronic suspension, so let's stick to the topic eh?

Is it anything like what Audi has developed with magnetically-controlled suspension oil liquidity (with tiny metal particles suspended in the oil) to control the damping force dynamically?

at the risk of bringing this thread back on topic ill add my 0.5c

kinda like this shit you mean? think thats been round in suspension for ages IIRC the late 80s ford laser TX3's had something similar, by the look of the wiring my guess is on the fly damping adjustment.

[Marmoot]

by the look of the wiring my guess is on the fly damping adjustment.

You mean closed-loop adaptive suspension damping control where there is a little servo continuously turning the adjuster left and right?
(ooh I feel geeky)

[bogan]

You mean closed-loop adaptive suspension damping control where there is a little servo continuously turning the adjuster left and right?
(ooh I feel geeky)

thats what my money is on, though it's probably more complicated than a servo the theory remains the same

[steelestring]

You mean closed-loop adaptive suspension damping control where there is a little servo continuously turning the adjuster left and right?
(ooh I feel geeky)

Yup thats the one. My old 89 Mitsubishi Mirage Cyborg had the same setup but the rear units died... ...sport mode!! 30 more horse power by the push of a button! (vibrations giving the illusion that loose change and rattles sped me up hehehe)
The shock units were very super heavy and bulky.... I was glad to see them go. Cool idea though and it worked.

[schrodingers cat]

Th autootive world has been experimenting with (essentially) varible viscosity oil. It has metallic magnetic particles in it and by enducing a charge, the partical behaviour 'stiffens' the oil. Not suggest this is how O****s are doing it just mentioning interesting technology

[NZsarge]

Commonly know as magnetic ride control, other than Audi it's also seen in Ferrari and HSV Holden. Developed by Delphi.

[Robert Taylor]

Ok guys, this is what I have learnt about it so far, some of this material has already been in several international publications plus snippets of info that I learnt while in Stockholm last September.
Ohlins have a CES system ( continuously controlled electronic suspension ) that they started work on way back in 85 and have now supplied quantities in ''telephone number'' figures to leading automotive manufacturers such as Audi, Ford, Volvo etc.
The system that they have been developing for motorycles is quite different and falls under the title of ''Mechatronics'', a combination of electronic and mechanical control. Basically it is adapted as a retrofit to existing TTX suspension units and one would suspect that it has been a master plan ever since they introduced TTX technology ( twin tube recirculating damping ) As the flow rate through TTX valves is approximately 5 times that of a conventional single tube displacement shock it means that the bandwith of adjustment afforded by the external clickers is dramatically wider than those conventional shocks. So such a shock lends itself to electronic actuation.
Basically the existing TTX valves will be replaced with valves that have electronically controlled stepper motors on them to vary the click position according to the required circumstances. For example if you wish to brake as late as possible into a corner the ideal scenario is that the compression clicker is closed off at or near completely in the front forks, as you peel into the corner and the bike leans over the clicker position then needs to be somewhat freer flowing to afford the rider good feel and to maximise response so that the wheel and tyre both follow surface imperfections and there is still enough pressure placed on the tyre to deliver maximum possible grip. In the latter stages of acceleration off the corner the front end is operating higher in its stroke and the rebound needs to be suitably free so the tyre can continue to find the downramp of bumps and any small surface ripples to keep it interlocked as much with the pavement. There is more traction on tarmac than there is in air!
Similarly in the rear end you dont want the rear end topping out too readily under braking so momentarily the rebound damping can be closed inwards a few clicks. Coming off the turns the rebound clicker will be opened out significantly to let the tyre find those downramps again and to amximise drive off the turns.
The system still has a tunable shim stack and that sets the basic character of the shock, contrary to popular misconception those external clickers are not a magic fix all, they dont magically revalve the shock externally! But as said above the TTX concept and its bandwith of adjustment lends itself rather nicely to this new technology.
Theres an optimum clicker setting in both rebound and compression for braking, mid corner transition, acceleration off corners etc. So with current clickers that dont continuously and automatically adjust for each part of the track and scenario it rather proves that clicker settings are a big compromise.
When briefly used in WSBK with Team Yamaha a couple of seasons back it was linked through a transmitter on the bike, transmitters strategically placed around the track and to a GPS satellite, plus various other electronic aids on the bikes. A fail safe default setting was also built in.
The system was very successful and Haga I think won two races on it and it should have been a third but for an engine chernobyling. This all prior to it being banned. Under braking at Donington Troy Corser found that he could brake into one particular corner 5 metres later with the system switched on. On a subsequent lap where he switched the system off he promptly fell off on that same corner when he tried to brake at approximately the same point! Off the corners the rebound clickers in the rear shocks were wound out to full open to maximise wheel extension response and therefore grip. They were driving off the corners better than the yardstick at that time, the Ducatis.
As all racers would know if you completely released rebound on a current rear shock the rear end would try to swap ends on braking and would be a wobbly jelly mid corner. So the essential ideal dynamics are more rebound control on corner / braking entry, a setting for chassis composure and sidegrip in transition / mid corner and release it off to maximise grip on exit.
Frankly this is all very exciting, especially as the system is going to be available as a retrofit for all current TTX36 shock absorbers.
The system promptly got banned in WSBK not so much because of the Ohlins system but because the rulemakers / governing body were much more concerned with the knowledge that companies like BMW could bring from their Mechatronics experience in Formula 1 car racing.
The production version of Ohlins Mechatronics will have to be affordable to the man in the street so GPS system is out but there are other ways and means. Until though there is a formal release of the aftermarket system ( pending later this year ) they are being pretty tight lipped.
There will of course be the negative naysayers ( youve only got to evidence this thread for sillyish but I hope good humored comments ) But the reality is electronic controls are happening more and more in motorcycling and that is the way everything is heading.
Ten or more years back you had a box full of jets and needles and had to laboriously fiddle with changing and rechanging them in banks of flat slide carburetors, nowadays with electronic injection its a few leystokes on a laptop to ''rejet''. If a poll was taken Id lay odds on what most racers prefer! This is broadly where it is ultimately heading with suspension and we will ultiamtely see it introduced in future years on more and more production motorcycles.
Bring it on!

[Robert Taylor]

Th autootive world has been experimenting with (essentially) varible viscosity oil. It has metallic magnetic particles in it and by enducing a charge, the partical behaviour 'stiffens' the oil. Not suggest this is how O****s are doing it just mentioning interesting technology

I have to study that one a little more and I wonder how well it modulates mass flow. Varying oil viscosity is roughly akin to varying orifice size. Smallish bypass bleed orifices are required for chassis control at low velocity damper shaft speeds. But when you approach curb strike velocities of say 800mm/ second or more there is a whole lot more flow area required that in a regular damper is modulated by large piston ports and a deflective shim stack. Id be interested to know how they are doing it, do you have a link?

[schrodingers cat]

Ten or more years back you had a box full of jets and needles and had to laboriously fiddle with changing and rechanging them in banks of flat slide carburetors, nowadays with electronic injection its a few leystokes on a laptop to ''rejet''. If a poll was taken Id lay odds on what most racers prefer! This is broadly where it is ultimately heading with suspension and we will ultiamtely see it introduced in future years on more and more production motorcycles.

Essentially 3D mapping then as opposed to mechanical 2D tuning?

If it makes it to production bikes I would assume that you'd get a certain number of 'presets' or a slider marked Harley Davidson - MotoGP

I will take a look for some reading re the varible viscosity oil. You have to admit that as a simple (crude) fudge for road riding it would be fairly effective. It may not optimise traction is all situations as you say but it would influence 'feel'

Found this for you http://www.gizmag.com/go/5752/
Note the effect isn't passive. They are suggesting a response rate of 1kHz

Also http://www.lord.com/Home/MagnetoRheo...7/Default.aspx

[Robert Taylor]

Essentially 3D mapping then as opposed to mechanical 2D tuning?

If it makes it to production bikes I would assume that you'd get a certain number of 'presets' or a slider marked Harley Davidson - MotoGP

I will take a look for some reading re the varible viscosity oil. You have to admit that as a simple (crude) fudge for road riding it would be fairly effective. It may not optimise traction is all situations as you say but it would influence 'feel'

Found this for you http://www.gizmag.com/go/5752/
Note the effect isn't passive. They are suggesting a response rate of 1kHz

Also http://www.lord.com/Home/MagnetoRheo...7/Default.aspx

Thanks for that. As soon as more information is available from Ohlins and embargos of information are lifted I will post.
WP also had a prototype system up and running ready to test in WSBK but that all went to ground after the ban. I have no doubt that as one of the leaders in motorcycle suspension they had something that was clever.