Damn scary - new ambulance probe

[The Moth]

well there was nothing about god sending him to me

[The Moth]

even when he got here he could not even get them on his mobile phone he had to use our land line ,fGs do people not relize how remote we are out here i think they should all get on there bikes or cars and just find out for themselves and if they are doing atrip just be very aware of the situation tell there mates.

[p.dath]

even when he got here he could not even get them on his mobile phone he had to use our land line ,fGs do people not relize how remote we are out here i think they should all get on there bikes or cars and just find out for themselves and if they are doing atrip just be very aware of the situation tell there mates.

I know you'll beat me up for this, but playing Devil's Advocate; knowing that you are so remote, and knowing that situations will arise, is there not something you guys can do to help yourselves? You know, personal responsibility? You already know the ambulance service is likely to let you down. Why wait for it to happen?

Perhaps the local community could fund raise for a local cell phone tower if you want more comms? Perhaps the local community could get involved in the CB radio movement to help each other?

How about getting something as simple as an PLB/ELT so you can be located via satellite?

Could the local community not go and visit the local emergency services from time to time to make sure they know how to locate rural people?

Could you not make an arrangement with the last neighbour that you have in cell phone range? Send emergency services there and have them help find the final address?

Does it always have to be someone elses problem and responsibility?

... flame suit on ...

[The Moth]

well you live in the north shore lucky you .you have no idea what you are talking about pull your head in because you are just talking a lot of shit . what part do you not understand NO MOBILE PHONE COVER . We are the point of reference for ambo and helicopter pickup
in times of emergencys they Know where to COME. Would you ring 111 if you needed them? would you expect them to arrive in the time given?Im sure i would not ring 111 if i didn't need them.

[Naki Rat]

I know you'll beat me up for this, but playing Devil's Advocate; knowing that you are so remote, and knowing that situations will arise, is there not something you guys can do to help yourselves? You know, personal responsibility? You already know the ambulance service is likely to let you down. Why wait for it to happen? These people actually had a helipad on their property. How more prepared can you be!

Perhaps the local community could fund raise for a local cell phone tower if you want more comms? Perhaps the local community could get involved in the CB radio movement to help each other? You obviously haven't got a clue about the area.

How about getting something as simple as an PLB/ELT so you can be located via satellite? Just how is this going to help if the ambulance driver is lost to start with?

Could the local community not go and visit the local emergency services from time to time to make sure they know how to locate rural people? Could the emergency services not upskill and equip their drivers so they are able to find rural addresses?

Could you not make an arrangement with the last neighbour that you have in cell phone range? Send emergency services there and have them help find the final address? Considering that the nearest cellphone coverage is probably 50km away that probably is not a viable option

Does it always have to be someone elses problem and responsibility? Because we pay taxes and ACC

... flame suit on ...

The root cause of the problem is political within Taranaki Area Health Board but the effects are risking lives in the Naki

[ynot slow]

The root cause of the problem is political within Taranaki Area Health Board but the effects are risking lives in the Naki

Yep one A.Beck chopper pilot extroadenaire(sp)offered his services years ago,but the idiot who organised the rescue chopper 10yrs ago or so decided we(area)needed a dedicated chopper,ffs Beck would drop anything and respond asap in an emergency,also more than once defied authorities to airlift climbers off Mt Egmont in dodgy weather.

Re CB radios etc,guys look outside your damn windows,the backblocks of Taranaki(eastern)have no cell coverage,only landline,also parts of highway around Mokau to Te Kuiti is cell coverage deprived,so those who think the emergency services are fine and dandy,hope you never require help around the outer fringes of coverage.

Similar around Gisborne way,and more than likely heaps of kiwi regions have limited cell coverage.

[RiderInBlack]

Similar around Gisborne way,and more than likely heaps of kiwi regions have limited cell coverage.

Aye, quite a few choice roads up here in the Norf are Cell-less. When Cracker come down South of the Kauri Forest, I didn't get cover until I hit Dargaville. Cracker was lucky ta come down outside a Farmer's Home, and that the Farmer was near his house. He didn't need a Ambo (thankfully). When TIE come off on Russell Road the Local Ambo, Local Police, Local Firemen and the Heli-Ambo found us easily because we give them the Rapid Location Number, and they were very familiar with the area they were covering. TIE was badly concussed and got taken straight to the Hospital.
Not heard of having the same delays with Ambo up here, yet we would have similar problems with finding a place. That can only mean that our Ambo staff are ether better equipped or trained. This of course means that someone in Management must also have made better decisions.

[ynot slow]

Agree RIB maybe a bit of common sense prevailed up your way,so the calls go to a call centre type comms,but once relayed hopefully the ambos have reasanable knowledge of the area to go to.Local knowledge is a boon in emergency.

[AD345]

Some pretty grim reading but it doesn't seem like there are insurmountable problems given the will and some resource.

A big part of what I do is Root Cause Analysis and problem solving, albeit in manufacturing but the principles are the same. From the evidence thus far is seems pretty straightforward which systems have failed.

1. Training. The most common systems failure and not suprising to find here. The driver was not sufficently trained in that he did not know the RAPID system, nor was this identified as a gap.

2. Communications. Poor or no coverage areas do not appear overnight, they are known in advance and the system is not designed to cope with them. The service has already admitted that they send a crew out with no communications as a matter of course. This is a huge gap and combined with the previous lack of training it is a certain recipe for disaster. Communications have to be provided for. At a very least there needs to be a satellite phone at each base (or at least each base with a no-coverage area within its area of responsibility). If fundraising is needed than this is where the funds shoiuld go

3. Labour. The service has admitted that they have blanket labour resourcing for all areas. This means that there has been no differentiation between a code 3 in an urban area where back-up is more easily available if needed and a code 3 in a rural area where there is no or limited back up. God help ya if the caller got the information wrong or the driver trips up to the steps into the house and sprains their ankle - you're fucked at that point.

It was the combination of failures in all 3 of those systems that lead directly to the problems in this case. If any one of them had functioned correctly (or been in place as the case may be) there would have been no issue

If all THREE systems were operating at that level you would have something very close to a Poke-yoke system (japanese for idiot-proof but meaning that failure is designed OUT of the system)

The processes for this type of analysis and investigation are more than 70 years old and in common use all across the world

Here is hoping they get used

[BoristheBiter]

well you live in the north shore lucky you .you have no idea what you are talking about pull your head in because you are just talking a lot of shit . what part do you not understand NO MOBILE PHONE COVER . We are the point of reference for ambo and helicopter pickup
in times of emergencys they Know where to COME. Would you ring 111 if you needed them? would you expect them to arrive in the time given?Im sure i would not ring 111 if i didn't need them.

Now that you have had your litttle go at pDath.
You live in the sticks your choice deal with it.
As for calling ambos out if you are in a remote area, i had to drive my other half 45min to Whangarei after she had come off her dirt bike. she had broken ribs, collapsed lung and a ruptured liver.
I knew i would be waiting a while for them so i drove her there myself. No bitch about ambos, dhb's or the first aiders on scene. I knew i would get there quicker then they could get to me.

You still have not said why someone was not waiting at the gate, which i would have thought was standard pratcice, it was when i trained.

And to Naki rat "Does it always have to be someone elses problem and responsibility? Because we pay taxes and ACC"
If you want to sit back and let everyone doe things for you then expect shit to happen. the Naki isn't specail when it comes to shitty DHB's, just ask anyone thats been to any hospital lately and they could give you some horror stories.

[ynot slow]

Boris the comment about waiting at gate is fine in theory,but remember these folks are approx 70km from Stratford,thus combined with lack of cell coverage(for the ambo to tell comms his location)the guys at comms would have no idea when the ambo would be in the area.And it(the road)isn't like saying 70km might take 45mins,more like 1-11/2 hours,and waiting for an hour to decide to head outside in a freezing East Naki countryside aint that flash,I have spent a bit of time camping in the area mid winter,so know how chilly it gets under a bivvy,let alone roadside.

[BoristheBiter]

Boris the comment about waiting at gate is fine in theory,but remember these folks are approx 70km from Stratford,thus combined with lack of cell coverage(for the ambo to tell comms his location)the guys at comms would have no idea when the ambo would be in the area.And it(the road)isn't like saying 70km might take 45mins,more like 1-11/2 hours,and waiting for an hour to decide to head outside in a freezing East Naki countryside aint that flash,I have spent a bit of time camping in the area mid winter,so know how chilly it gets under a bivvy,let alone roadside.

if my other half was in the pain that she says i would be looking out for the ambo. also didn't she say there was a first repsonder there?
Yip i hunt have hunted that area alot and it does get cold, thats why i have a jacket and pants.

[ynot slow]

No only single crew ambo,combine that with going over duty hours for him made a driver change needed as well.You would think if the ambo was stopped by the cops they'd understand the driving hours oversite,but not the St Johns (especially if the ambulance crashed)so he was forced to do driver change.I don't want to berate the service,just the way they go/went about the call out that night,which highlights the areas in this ountry which have no cell phone coverage,that is the crux of the matter,the driver was lost(didn't understand rapid system is a fail,no way to contact the driver is a fail)and having travelled in an ambulance from Hawera to New Plymouth on a major highway the ride wasn't to comfy,and my reason was illness not accident and was able to sit up.Can only imagine the road trip from Tahora to Stratford would be the longest 1hour or so.

[Paul in NZ]

This is very sad but if you have some knowledge of the way emergency services are organised in NZ it is hardly surprising.

Communications is always going to be an issue here - face it, cell technology cannot and has not ever been 100% reliable due to the population density, topography and cost. GPS has limitations to but cheap systems have more limits. A couple of years back I demo'd a hybrid Radio / GPS / Cell / Satellite system but its just too expensive.

Communication and sharing of information resources between the Police, Fire and Ambulance services can be tricky as they have trouble agreeing on a standard system. I'm guessing this is partly to do with how the various organisations are funded and set up and also from a distrust between the management of the various organisations. IMHO the Police should run the systems and call centre and the gear funded into the ambos free by the govt.

I believe the AA was involved at one stage collecting rural addresses etc and I wonder where that info ended up??

[The Moth]

I think you have a bit of verbal diarrhoea so take a bit of meds for it.