I'm a greeny and think that the ETS is a crock of faeces

[Jantar]

Jantar, I have read as many of the papers you cited as I could find, and I agree that the process that the IPCC have used has not been as rigorous as it needed to be, but that is well documented. I have still to find anything credible that says climate change either isn't happening or that changes we're experiencing are not primarily caused by human activity.

Now they are two totally different subjects to the one you challenged me on, and to what I answered.

You know what? I can't find anything credible that says climate change isn't happening either. That's because the climate is changing. It always has and always will. But lets discuss Climate change on http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...global-warming and leave this thread for ETS issues.

[shrub]

But lets discuss Climate change on http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...global-warming and leave this thread for ETS issues.

Good point. In my mind one the biggest failings of the ETS is that it supports all the beliefs that have been constructed by the contrarian think tanks and websites: namely that climate change is a scam designed by governments to find new ways to tax the poor hard working man in the street and then feed that money back into the limitless troughs of ever expanding government. Not that there's anything wrong with big government, unless you're a corporate looking longingly at the trough and wishing you could have a piece of that (privatised) pie.

So we are fed wall to wall propaganda telling us that climate change is is a scam, and then the ETS happens along and all the agrieved right wingers howl in indignation "see, we told you so".

[avgas]

The still make 80% of there electricity via burning fossil Fuels

Huh - what the hell are you smoking?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:So...ce_in_2006.PNG
Also France is the biggest source of generation in Europe. They export to Germany etc

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

Huh - what the hell are you smoking?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:So...ce_in_2006.PNG
Also France is the biggest source of generation in Europe. They export to Germany etc

Was suppose to say the US of A Oppps

[Quasievil]

Good point. In my mind one the biggest failings of the ETS is that it supports all the beliefs that have been constructed by the contrarian think tanks and websites: namely that climate change is a scam designed by governments to find new ways to tax the poor hard working man in the street and then feed that money back into the limitless troughs of ever expanding government

it is a scam designed to feed governments and corporates, what are you on about?

Not that there's anything wrong with big government,

There is everything wrong with Big government, first thing is its doesnt need to be a ever ballooning tax swallowing machine with an ever growing appetite, the smaller and more efficent the better, Government DOESNT know how to spend your money better, they suck at it, always have always will

So we are fed wall to wall propaganda telling us that climate change is is a scam, and then the ETS happens along and all the agrieved right wingers howl in indignation "see, we told you so".

Man Made global warming is a scam, ETS was built on the back of it to reduce emissions, princepally the non pollutant gas called Carbon Dioxide.

As a community we where fed bullshit to enable this bullshit to reign supreme.

[avgas]

Was suppose to say the US of A Oppps

True - but when have we followed USA's thinking of ANYTHING lol
If it wasn't for an immigrant their power system would be on DC hahahaha

[davereid]

Was suppose to say the US of A Oppps

The US is way behind in Nuclear Energy production, mostly due to political pressure.

They don't even re-process fuel rods, so IMHO they can't be considered serious players, at least not just yet.

But when the US says its "game on" for nukes, they will just do it, fast and effectively.

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

The US is way behind in Nuclear Energy production, mostly due to political pressure...

Not only that they can make more money out of Fossil Fuels... sell the fossil fuel and the electricity... ??? think of the etra tax the federial gooberment gets...


It all comes down to money... and the love of it, is the root of all evil (apparently)

[Winston001]

Thank you, that is what I am looking for. I'll access the papers you cite and get back to you once i've read them.

FYI Jantar is a decent and intelligent guy. He knows his physics. Of course he's wrong on this topic but hey - we can disagree and laugh.

[shrub]

FYI Jantar is a decent and intelligent guy. He knows his physics. Of course he's wrong on this topic but hey - we can disagree and laugh.

He is that, and I have been enjoying an intelligent debate with him off forum and we have challenged each other but I agree, he's off target with this subject.

I think one of the issues is that big business needs to start accepting responsibility for their actions and recognising that user pays doesn't just apply to you and I. For decades they have been merrily dumping billions of tonnes of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere without thought, and now we're realising that there is a consequence for that behaviour.

The only problem is, they don't actually want to pay for the mess they've made, so they have decided the best solution is to convince people they shouldn't have to by (very successfully) convincing people that climate change isn't real or is nothing to do with their behaviour and have made it a political issue, not a business problem. It has been interesting watching the process unfold and seeing the absolute mastery displayed by their various PR people.

The first problem was to create a perception that there is doubt about whether climate change is real, and given that the overwhelming majority of relevant scientists are convinced it is, you would think that was a big problem. Fortunately for them the scientific community is a little arrogant and is not used to defending their position. They tell us something is so, and expect us to believe them, and worst of all they make their information inaccessible for the ordinary person. They love their long words and complex concepts, and then they hide them in journals and publications that are not available to the general public. I have access to pretty much everything, but that's only because I'm doing postgrad research.

So they put up a whole pile of websites and blogs with really scientific sounding titles like "NZ Climate Science Coalition" and "Global Warming Policy Foundation", hired a few (usually irrelvant) "experts" like David Bellamy, and started producing screeds of easy to read and simplistic material that cast doubt on the dry and dusty reports generated by the scientists. Often these papers are written by journalists or people who have PhDs in something completely different.

Then came time to discredit the establishment. Al Gore was easy - has anyone seen his power bill lately? How can you take him seriously!!! And they had hundreds of people trawling through the IPCC reports, and inevitably found 5 or 6 errors, including the now famous Himalayan glaciers. By adding the suffix "gate" to everything they linked these errors in the eyes of the public with deliberate attempts to bullshit us like Watergate. Of course none of these "gates" had the slightest bit of influence on the overall conclusions generated by the IPCC report, but the public had been distracted. And of course how can we forget the stolen emails. After working through thousands of emails they found a few phrases that sounded very, very dodgy. They weren't, but they sounded dodgy and got a lot of media coverage (unlike the official report that found there was no problem). Damage done.

The experts remain convinced, but we've been told that the scientists were all wrong and are only doing it to get funding, and that IPCC were a bunch of crooks producing rubbish, and we're the ones who vote.

And the most important part was to show that climate change is a scam designed to fleece ordinary hard working people like you and I. We've been convinced that climate change isn't real, or is at the least in doubt, so when Our Masters introduced the ETS which mean we were all paying an extra few dollars a week, it was easy to say "it's a scam. They want your money for nefarious purposes and 'big government", and you're all being fleeced", so when Our Masters approach big business and demand they do something about their mess, they will have the support they need to tell them to go get fornicated. Which means Our Masters will decide to leave well enough alone because there's always an election coming up.

And in the meantime the climate continues to change, but it won't affect the rich old men who make our minds up for us.

[Jantar]

The issue I have with this post is the assumption that skeptics deny climate change is happening. We have been through this off forum, but in fact skeptics agree that climate change is happening. Where the disagreement occurs is in the cause of such change. Skeptics say that the change is natural, and challenge the warmers to show that it isn't. They have been unable to do this.

The next issue is the part that say

The first problem was to create a perception that there is doubt about whether climate change is real, and given that the overwhelming majority of relevant scientists are convinced it is, you would think that was a big problem

. And given that Anderegg et al (2010) list a large number of scientists who do have a counter view, it becomes obvious that it is scientists who are debating the issues, and not "Big Business" as claimed.

[Winston001]

Guys - the core issue is pollution and that is what the ETS, carbon trading etc is aimed at. No-one seriously argues the Earth's climate doesn't change. We disagree as to whether human activities are contributing.

But that is a side issue. A common theme on KB and other forums blogs etc is the pollution of streams and rivers by agriculture. It isn't a greenhouse or carbon concern - just plain dismay at environmental pollution. And that is the real issue. Pollution.

Unless we recognise that, our passions are going to be distracted by pointless and unresolvable arguments over climate change.

[Jantar]

Guys - the core issue is pollution and that is what the ETS, carbon trading etc is aimed at. .....

I do wish I could agree with you, and then I'd be on your side and supporting the ETS fully. But the ETS doesn't target pollution, it targets Carbon. If it did target dairy effluent, paper mill discharges, toxins etc then I'd be saying "Hell Yeah". But instead the ETS targets carbon. In particular it targets carbon dioxide (CO2) that is an essential for life on our planet.

If pollution is the real issue, then lets stop all this nonsense on AGW, concentrate on pollution, and let the earths climate do whatever it wants.

[Swoop]

The reaction to the yahoo pole says it all really.

Huh? Is this like a fireman's pole, or a fisherman's pole?

Guys - the core issue is pollution and that is what the ETS, carbon trading etc is aimed at.

As far as I can see, the ETS does sod-all for preventing or reducing pollution.
If any government had credibility they would address issues directly, without sending large amounts of cash overseas.
Deal with issues caused by NZ companies, in NZ.

[Winston001]

You'll properly find at the end of the day the money actually ends up with companies like BP, Rothschilds, & people like Al Gore...

Actually it will be the companies like BP etc who will be paying - not receiving. A real life example: British Gas (a corporate giant) pays the Christchurch City Council just under $1 million annually to buy carbon credits. The carbon is captured by the city's recycling rubbish scheme which produces methane. That in turn heats the QE II pool complex as well as bringing in $1 million.

So the big energy companies which use fossil fuels have to pay out. $1 million is a pretty good starter as an incentive to make gas use more efficient.