Does drug prohibition put the police in danger and harm the public?

[shrub]

Dunno about gateway addiction - but it certainly sounds like an expensive one ..

Yeah, I keep thinking I should switch to P, but getting wound up and agitated vs sitting back and relaxing in my comfy chair with a cigar and a whisky - well, there's no contest really.

[scissorhands]

I wish lol... and i'm sure everyone goes to Amsterdam to see the canals ... Unfortunately a cannabis culture, once legalised/decriminalised, will be inevitable, just like we have car cultures, motorcycle cultures, booze and drug cultures already...

Having said that... legalising cannabis, putting in place "restrictions" similar to those of alcohol and centralising supply (if not from your own shed), could turn out to be quite an earner for the tourist industry?

Maybe a culture aint so bad, and as you say inevitable. Maybe thats the problem with NZ and alcohol....

I just think of a young man say with a 1 gram cannabis a week consumption say, who starts to hang out at the cannabis cafe. Soon after being around the older hands hes up to their level of 1 gram a day....even though hes half their age and new to the drug.

Even greening out newbies for kicks laughing at their state, usually receives none of the critical attention it deserves from a health and safety perspective.

When i once took an impossibly large lungful via a bucky bong, smoking cannabis thereafter required larger doses to achieve the same result, just like with anything really. Large heavilly condensed lungfuls cause much bronchial damage, yet most cannabis scenes I've been around glorify the big hit, big toke, much like the sculling at alcohol gatherings.

Like hops, cannabis suspended in liquid like alcohol is much healthier and less addictive without the CO3 and noxious gases from burning.

Some awesome cocktails with thujone containing sage, other herbs and plants could be made with a still. Cannabis is very similar to hops in plant biology

A local tradition in Banda Acer Indonesia is to cook for the family and throw in some buds. These people are strongly Muslim and intoxication is frowned upon. So they only include enough for a healthy effect. I doubt whether Kiwis would have that much self control

[mashman]

Maybe a culture aint so bad, and as you say inevitable. Maybe thats the problem with NZ and alcohol....

I just think of a young man say with a 1 gram cannabis a week consumption say, who starts to hang out at the cannabis cafe. Soon after being around the older hands hes up to their level of 1 gram a day....even though hes half their age and new to the drug.

Even greening out newbies for kicks laughing at their state, usually receives none of the critical attention it deserves from a health and safety perspective.

When i once took an impossibly large lungful via a bucky bong, smoking cannabis thereafter required larger doses to achieve the same result, just like with anything really. Large heavilly condensed lungfuls cause much bronchial damage, yet most cannabis scenes I've been around glorify the big hit, big toke, much like the sculling at alcohol gatherings.

Like hops, cannabis suspended in liquid like alcohol is much healthier and less addictive without the CO3 and noxious gases from burning.

Some awesome cocktails with thujone containing sage, other herbs and plants could be made with a still. Cannabis is very similar to hops in plant biology

A local tradition in Banda Acer Indonesia is to cook for the family and throw in some buds. These people are strongly Muslim and intoxication is frowned upon. So they only include enough for a healthy effect. I doubt whether Kiwis would have that much self control

I think part of the problem, not just with NZ either, is that the law makers have spent their lives avoiding the stuff, as it looks bad in the media, and therefore have only read the blurb on how bad for you it is... gotta save the health service money, i mean save the non-Borg from themselves...

lol, we know self control is a problem in every walk of life though and only, usually, exercise it when we're alone... the rest of the time it's follow the crowd, unless you can assert your individualism (i know how wanky that sounds ), which I guess is what you're referring too... I do, however, believe that it is VERY possible to do (educate the individual that is)... but you're gonna have to change the school curriculum somewhat ...

[Edbear]

I think part of the problem, not just with NZ either, is that the law makers have spent their lives avoiding the stuff, as it looks bad in the media, and therefore have only read the blurb on how bad for you it is... gotta save the health service money, i mean save the non-Borg from themselves...

lol, we know self control is a problem in every walk of life though and only, usually, exercise it when we're alone... the rest of the time it's follow the crowd, unless you can assert your individualism (i know how wanky that sounds ), which I guess is what you're referring too... I do, however, believe that it is VERY possible to do (educate the individual that is)... but you're gonna have to change the school curriculum somewhat ...

Education is the key and I fully agree with you there. However it's only a minor adjustment to the school curriculum to include drug and alcohol education. School has proven to be quite effective at getting messages across with a good rate if success. What is more of a problem, is educating those not in school, those who make up the vast majority of drug users/abusers.

The only way to reach these ones is through TV and the courts. Perhaps if the courts would impose mandatory education for repeat offenders which includes programs for getting out of the environment that leads to drug abuse we may see some inprovements. It's an issue that, along with others such as the boy-racer/ shoplifting/ street violence/ alcohol binge drinking, goes deeper than simply catching and fining or imprisoning those caught.

As long as offenders see the issue as "us and them" (Police/Pollies), it will remain an issue. Same as speeding, really. "It's my right to do as I please if I'm not hurting anyone else!" This attitude is at the core of the problems in society with too many unwilling to compromise for the common good. Too many insisting on their rights and too few looking out for the good of others as it means compromise and self-denial.

The old saying, "No man is an Island" is not understood and if we were all able to have our own island and live by our own rules we would be very lonely indeed.

[mashman]

Education is the key and I fully agree with you there. However it's only a minor adjustment to the school curriculum to include drug and alcohol education. School has proven to be quite effective at getting messages across with a good rate if success. What is more of a problem, is educating those not in school, those who make up the vast majority of drug users/abusers.

The only way to reach these ones is through TV and the courts. Perhaps if the courts would impose mandatory education for repeat offenders which includes programs for getting out of the environment that leads to drug abuse we may see some inprovements. It's an issue that, along with others such as the boy-racer/ shoplifting/ street violence/ alcohol binge drinking, goes deeper than simply catching and fining or imprisoning those caught.

As long as offenders see the issue as "us and them" (Police/Pollies), it will remain an issue. Same as speeding, really. "It's my right to do as I please if I'm not hurting anyone else!" This attitude is at the core of the problems in society with too many unwilling to compromise for the common good. Too many insisting on their rights and too few looking out for the good of others as it means compromise and self-denial.

The old saying, "No man is an Island" is not understood and if we were all able to have our own island and live by our own rules we would be very lonely indeed.

agreed... but that's not the sort of education I was talking about... those that are already out of school and using/abusing will find their own path... like you say there's fook all we can do about that and agree that you can't fix everyone over night... I wouldn't dare try it... and if they're enjoying it that much, TV ain't gonna make a difference... need a few xbox games to get the idea across lol...

The education i'm talking about is 13:30 on a friday afternoon, skin up, get the kids round the back of the bikeshed, quick smoke (Cannabis only for now, an experiment as to the effectiveness of the education if you like) and then back into the classroom for Whiteys, giggles and a discussion to acsertain what was here before space existed , ok a discussion as to what they're feeling... When it comes to "drugs", there's no substitute for experience (personal experience that is)... but that's what i'd like to see happen...

I would hope that real life education would allow for better judgement calls...

[Hinny]

As long as offenders see the issue as "us and them" (Police/Pollies), it will remain an issue. Same as speeding, really. "It's my right to do as I please if I'm not hurting anyone else!" This attitude is at the core of the problems in society with too many unwilling to compromise for the common good. Too many insisting on their rights and too few looking out for the good of others...

You appear to be unaware of the results of decriminalisation in various countries around the world.
The attitude towards Police changed markedly and for the batter for instance in Oregon when cannabis use was decriminalised.
You are right with the speeding issue to I believe. The 'Speed Kills' policy has proven itself to be counter productive.
In the same vein drug education has proven to be counter productive. Especially so when the educators tell lies. It is a case of get caught telling lies once and you will not be trusted again. The whole anti drug message gets lost.
There certainly are some insidious drugs out there. P and Nicotine are the worst in my opinion.
The Australian documentary on drugs entitled 'The Devil You Know' is recommended viewing. Particularly so for prohibitionists.
I was particularly impressed by the Heroin users that were interviewed. Each was of the opinion that they could give up Heroin anytime, but cigarettes ... No way. Each drug highly addictive. One not physiologically harmful and highly illegal. The other a deadly poison that attacks every organ in your body and legal.
The world is kind of screwed up.
The argument for the abolition of the illegal drug trade is the preferred argument from both camps. The measures to achieve this goal is the stumbling block. That argument should be indefensible on the part of the prohibitionists. We only have to look at history. Prohibition and the drug wars have escalated cannabis use from the preserve of a few black US musicians to become a worldwide scourge of violence, corruption and increased criminality.
It is time to get sensible and stop imagining different outcomes from continued use of failed policies.

[Edbear]

The bottom line is that people want to be able to do as they please without someone else telling them they can or can't and if they can, how much/fast/where and what.

It doesn't take rocket science to lay out medically proven effects upon the body and mind of various substances. Each time I get a prescription it comes with a fact sheet about the medicine and its possible or likely side effects along with a description of what it is for.

People will rebel or ignore laws that don't suit them regardless, all the while insisting they have both the right and valid reason for doing so. I can control and handle alcohol and choose not to get blotto, others can't or don't want to. I can drive safely at high speeds, others can't drive safely at any speed.

You cannot have a civilised society with individual laws for each person based upon that person's estimation of their knowledge and abilities. We can bemoan the 100km/h limit and the fact that it is enforced, but we also agree that many drivers are not safe at even 80km/h. If we were to try to exercise carte-blanche to drive as we felt capable the roads would be absolute chaos and the carnage would be even worse than it is now.

Same with drug use - maybe you can handle a modicum of Cannabis and restrict yourself in its use, many can't and as with alcohol, don't know how and couldn't care anyway about self-control.

What no-one can argue against is the detrimental effects of drugs and alcohol on the body and the naturally addictive nature of them. Many people cannot limit their use or choose not to in their desire to get drunk or stoned and thus impose upon the freedoms and rights of others who have to deal with the consequences, such as the Police, Ambo's and hospitals along with their families.

The message I am reading here, is that some simply want the right to do as they please without regulation - that the rules and regulations should be for those that "need them". Unfortunately, life doesn't work that way...

[mashman]

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with this, i'd like to see what Nutt's proposals are... At least he acknowledges that prohibitive measures aren't working... shame he was roasted by his party... Good of society v Vote losing, grrrrrr that really pisses me awf, but sums up how badly disconnected from society governments really are...

[scissorhands]

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with this, i'd like to see what Nutt's proposals are... At least he acknowledges that prohibitive measures aren't working... shame he was roasted by his party... Good of society v Vote losing, grrrrrr that really pisses me awf, but sums up how badly disconnected from society governments really are...

Its government pandering to big corporations to be exact....using the same witch hunting techniques of the last 1000years by demonizing herbal anything, including cannabis

They just dont care about right or wrong....check this vid about big pharma

[mashman]

I don't doubt that that is the case and that governments are the major purchasers (on our behalf) of the drugs... but drug companies are a whole new topic ...

Why don't we adopt the Portuguese "method" of drug control? Sounds like they've realised that prohibition doesn't work and have changed their "system" to reflect their society and have reportedly made massive financial savings... I'd be interested to see any documentation from the Portuguese Police, or govt for that matter, on the effect it has had on "Policing" in general...

got anything like that lying around Sciss?

[Hinny]

The UK adopted a policy for Heroin users whereby registered users were able to obtain their daily dose from a pharmacy. In the same way that in NZ addicts get Methadone which I believe is a much worse drug than Heroin.
Spectacular drop in deaths.
People were getting pure Heroin not something cut with all manner of additives including I believe Quinine and Ajax. Differing strengths led to overdoses.

Radically reduced rate of new users.
No money in promoting Heroin use for drug dealers.

Drug related crime fell dramatically.
No longer needing huge amounts of money to fund their drug use. Imagine how many burglaries one would need to commit to fund a thousand pound a week habit.

Our Drug Policy makers labeled the UK experiment a failure.
The US DEA pushed for the abolition of the policy and were eventually rewarded by the repeal of the law. The expected outcomes materialised but the old policy is still in force with the rest of society bearing the costs.

There is seemingly no logic in policies which prohibit the ingestion of certain substances into ones body.
Ain it hurts no one do thee what thou whilst.
I find no fault in the logic of this.
Curbing personal freedom in the name of democracy is little more than mob rule.

'One of the central assumptions of the concept of democracy, perhaps its most central assumption, is that by and large human beings are better judges of their own interests…. The operating maxim of the democratic ideology is, “Whoever wears the shoe knows best where it pinches.”' Sidney Hook.

[Hinny]

Relevant and Pertinent.

Albert Einstein quotes:

Today's problems cannot be solved by thinking the way we thought when we created them.

Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.

Never do anything against conscience even if the state demands it.

The ruling class has the schools and press under its thumb. This enables it to sway the emotions of the masses.

[Paul in NZ]

If pot is such a relaxing mellow you out kinda drug...... How come people keep shooting cops to protect it? i dunno.....

[Hinny]

Time spent wasting is not wasted time. T S Elliot

[=cJ=]

I guess what REALLY gets me confused is that if I consume any drug, then go on to harm nobody other than myself, what reason is there to say I've done wrong?

That is the bit I really struggle with when it comes to drug laws, similarly to how I struggle with speeding rules. I can't feel bad about breaking them, as I am hurting no-one in the process, unlike say, if I stole something, or hurt someone.

If I was under the influence of something and caused harm, then that would be a different story however, but then I've hurt/harmed someone.