ATGATT. Why? It doesn't affect anyone else?

[MSTRS:Me]

Yes, a chain of events is started. However, the rider is not responsible for every link in that chain.

I know what you are trying to say, but I look at it as linear. Change the first action, then any flow on is totally different.

[swbarnett]

I know what you are trying to say, but I look at it as linear. Change the first action, then any flow on is totally different.

Agreed. This is indeed the case.

The trouble comes when you try to lock down what constitutes the first action. Was it the decision to ride gear-less? The decision to ride? The rider's parents decision to have a child? Maybe even the decision to market the motorcycle? Or to invent it in the first place?

Do you think the inventor of the motorcycle is responsible for the suffering of a rider's family after they are invalided by crashing without the gear?

[MSTRS:Me]

Now you are just being silly.
The (potential) rider is faced with choices. It is their choice alone to make, as they are the one responsible for their action/s. What they choose to do or wear is the start of a process of consequences, for them and others.
The rider's choice. The rider's responsibility.

[rabidnz]

swbarnett you should post a photo of yourself which we can send to the relevant health agencies, so they know not to bother scraping you off the side of the road when you smear yoursef along it

[Spearfish]

Agreed.

Do you think the inventor of the motorcycle is responsible for the suffering of a rider's family after they are invalided by crashing without the gear?

Yes, yes I do damn it!
And those who invented the pecker-head German helmet
and the inventors of tar seal
and ACC for making any of this a discussion at all

[swbarnett]

Now you are just being silly.

Yes and no. Yes, I was using extreme examples to illustrate a point.

Can it not be said that if the rider was never born then they could not have a motorcycle accident? If motorcycles hadn't been invented they certainly couldn't crash.

To blame the rider alone for the flow on effects of a crash is an over-simplification.

The (potential) rider is faced with choices. It is their choice alone to make, as they are the one responsible for their action/s. What they choose to do or wear is the start of a process of consequences, for them and others.

There is certainly a series of events that follows the riders decision. However, the choice that they have to make is only theirs to make because of the chain of events that have gone before (starting with the Big Bang - or Creation if you prefer).

There is an expression "Standing on the shoulders of giants." which means "One who develops future intellectual pursuits by understanding the research and works created by notable thinkers of the past". We can only achieve what we do because others have gone before and laid the groundwork. That does not mean that the "notable thinkers of the past" can lay claim to what later thinkers come up with. The same is true for negative outcomes. Notable idiots of the past cannot lay claim to the decisions of those that follow.

[MSTRS:Me]

Notable idiots of the past cannot lay claim to the decisions of those that follow.

Or the postings of today's idiots...

[slofox]

Just had a lad pull up outside my shop on his bike (250 Hyo) - had a screaming demon muffler on it which caught my attention.

He was happily riding with helmet and no other protective gear at all - no boots, gloves or any form of jacket.

I had to bite my tongue to stop asking him where his gear was...

I bet he was cold 'cause it's freezing here just now...

[swbarnett]

Or the postings of today's idiots...

Exactly.

10 char...

[Eyegasm]

Common Sense. Nuff said.

[Grubber]

Yes and no. Yes, I was using extreme examples to illustrate a point.

Can it not be said that if the rider was never born then they could not have a motorcycle accident? If motorcycles hadn't been invented they certainly couldn't crash.

To blame the rider alone for the flow on effects of a crash is an over-simplification.


There is certainly a series of events that follows the riders decision. However, the choice that they have to make is only theirs to make because of the chain of events that have gone before (starting with the Big Bang - or Creation if you prefer).

There is an expression "Standing on the shoulders of giants." which means "One who develops future intellectual pursuits by understanding the research and works created by notable thinkers of the past". We can only achieve what we do because others have gone before and laid the groundwork. That does not mean that the "notable thinkers of the past" can lay claim to what later thinkers come up with. The same is true for negative outcomes. Notable idiots of the past cannot lay claim to the decisions of those that follow.

What a crock of Shite.
Get back to the basics man....you know, the bit where we talk about safe gear and safe riding.
What the ....??? Can't believe you even went beyond that point in the first place.

Evolution is kinda out of our hands don't ya think!

[swbarnett]

Common Sense. Nuff said.

I totally agree. However, common sense is contextual. What's common sense now wasn't in the 50s.

[swbarnett]

Get back to the basics man....you know, the bit where we talk about safe gear and safe riding.

The issue I have with this is that the definition of the above is always in flux. You and I may well agree on this definition but if we're not careful the term "safe riding" will become an oxymoron and we won't be allowed to ride at all.

Evolution is kinda out of our hands don't ya think!

Which is exactly my point. It's part of the chain of events that led to what the OP was talking about. We can only be held responsible for the direct concequences of our involvement in that chain, not those that also involve the decisions of others.

[Katman]

Which is exactly my point. It's part of the chain of events that led to what the OP was talking about. We can only be held responsible for the direct concequences of our involvement in that chain, not those that also involve the decisions of others.

The fact is that at some point in a chain of events sensibility has to be exercised.

See if you can figure out where that point falls in the following chain........

Motorcyclist has accident through riding like an idiot - Motorcycles should never have been invented - Mankind should never have been created.

I do understand that this question may overload that Libertarian brain of yours.

[davereid]

The fact is that at some point in a chain of events sensibility has to be exercised.

While Mr Barnett hasn't made an eloquent job of explaining it, he agrees with you. Or more precisely, you agree with him.

You are saying that "the point in the chain of events" was when the motorcyclist decided to commence his trip, sans all the Katman approved training and safety gear.

Mt Barnett is saying that "the point in the chain of events" occurred at some earlier time.

Possibly when the motorcyclist decided to be a motorcyclist instead of a pedestrian.
Possibly when the motorcyclist decided to be a motorcyclist instead of a bus passenger.
Possibly when the motorcyclist decided to be a motorcyclist instead of a cyclist.
Possibly when the motorcyclist decided to be a motorcyclist instead of a car driver.
Possibly when he was born according to his mother.

All are valid arguments, and his mother makes sense, as that was the one event that assured us Mr Barnett would die.

But you don't, as you apparently presuppose that riding a motorcycle doesn't affect other people as long as the safety rules are followed.

I am certain to die.
Most likely of a heart attack.
Possibly of cancer.
Liver failure might be implicated.
A.I.D.s cant be ruled out.
Suicide happens but is unlikely.
A motorcycle crash is even less likely.
A motorcycle crash without me wearing my helmet might happen.
Its possible as I ride without it lots in summer.
But I will, statistically win lotto 10 times first.

For the pleasure I get, compared to the risk, and given that I will die anyway, I'll keep on doing it.

I might even go and have another (deadly to my liver, heart, cholesterol) drink while I contemplate it.