A miner issue

[marty]

I would suggest nobody here knows ALL the facts. Or anyone anywhere for that matter.

yet people keep saying dumb shit

[JimO]

yet people keep saying dumb shit

its the kb way

[Indoo]

but I still have this niggling feeling that those at the top were being overly cautious when some were willing to tread what could have been a deadly trail.

Which of the mine rescue guys said they believed it was possible to go in but were prevented by those in charge. They had colleagues and 'brothers' in the mine, do you not think if there was even the tiniest opportunity they would have taken it?

[smoky]

Interestingly the Mines Rescue Manager just now on CloseUp said that from the time of the first explosion due to it rupturing a gas line there was 800lt per second of Methane gas being released into the mine. There was no "window of opportunity" at any time.

Just shows how wrong people can get things - the methane doesn't come from a gas line, it comes from the coal, the ground - it was an air line used to power pneumatic tools that was ruptured

yet people keep saying dumb shit

people are allowed to aren't they? I guess there are a lot of questions, some like my self will always think too little was done too late and the powers to be were too cautious
Others will believe what the experts tell them, that they did all they could
and we have our reasons to think either way
It's human nature to express our opinion - and thinking or expression either way does not detract from the severity and sadness of the tragedy

I don't trust everything that has been said from Police, mine officials or politicians, I don't trust the media's representation of everything either

But we all agree it was shocking, it is sad

[Woodman]

Just shows how wrong people can get things - the methane doesn't come from a gas line, it comes from the coal, the ground - it was an air line used to power pneumatic tools that was ruptured

Edbear is right as to what was said cos thats how I heard it too. Didn't understand it, but definitely heard it.

[smoky]

Edbear is right as to what was said cos thats how I heard it too. Didn't understand it, but definitely heard it.

Wasn't saying he heard it wrong.

[Hopeful Bastard]

Sorry, But I am not going to read through 13 pages of posts..

But how do we know that they are dead?

Yes, There have been 2 blasts. Yes, There is poisonous gas in there.. But how do we know that they haven't gotten themselves into a Miraculous Air Pocket created by The first explosion?

I mean, They called be all sealed off from everything.. How do we know FOR SURE that they are dead?

[Maha]

The mining experts are going on what they do know rather than what they dont know.
They do that the first expolsion was pretty intense.
They do know that the mine then rapidly filled with dangerous gases over the follow days.
They do know where the miner were working in relation to the explosion.
They do know that the second explosion was not survivable.
They also know that there is no straw to clutch onto in the mine.

[Virago]

...How do we know FOR SURE that they are dead?

We don't.

The suddenness of the "All Hope Lost" announcement is a surprise to many, but it is a very important step in allowing the safe recovery operation to proceed.

The current situation of dangerous gases and sporadic explosions would likely continue indefinitely, with no chance of entry to the mine. Once the "All Hope Lost" decision is made, drastic measures can be taken to make the situation safer - but these measures would likely kill any survivors in there.

This is the ultimate Catch 22 situation. But the hard decisions have to be made, and I have huge repect for those who have to make them.

[Genestho]

This was the comment that I deleted the other day in a post, relayed by one of one of the workers...when I re-read that line, it had huge implications, too horrific to contemplate for anyone at that time.

I don't know the latest, but yesterday they were interviewing a bloke who's bringing over a jet powered machine that disperses inert gases to stabilise the mine for entry - from Aus, as well as a Manager, two supervisors and their team 16 in all said the boss.

This is going to be a very very tough decision for all involved.

They are going to have to be 100% sure hope really is gone and everyone is onboard with them.

It will feel like losing them all over again, and then when they bring the bodies out, same again.

The families have had so much to endure and still more to go, and then the inquiries which I hope for their sakes don't drag on, although they're owed thorough answers.
Just so heartbreaking.

[Katman]

Just shows how wrong people can get things - the methane doesn't come from a gas line, it comes from the coal, the ground - it was an air line used to power pneumatic tools that was ruptured

Yep, something doesn't quite add up here.

This whole "build up of methane gas" theory is completely the opposite to the post earlier that said methane concentration has to fall to 15% before it becomes volatile.

[RiderInBlack]

I don't envy any rescue teams dealing will life threating events, with Rubber-neckers and Media poking they judgmental nose in, while they are doing the very best they can with the knowledge and expertise they have.
As a Nurse I a have a duty to stop at accidents to assist if needed (and have done so). I strictly obey the golden rule, to handover to more experienced rescue works as they arrive to the scene and back off immediately to give them space to do what they do unhampered. It's they call now. I do not second judge them on what they choose to do. They make their best call base on the information they have at the time. End of case.
So KBérs, I strongly suggest ya back off on the judgments on the choices the were made by all those involved down there. They are going to have to live for the rest of their lives with the what if's rolling in their minds for the rest of their lives. Just hope ya never get put in a position where it's your turn to make the hard calls with Media & Rubber-necks on ya back judging ya every move.
Let them, and all those close to the Miners, have space to grieve. Give them space and give them support.

[Banditbandit]

History has a lot to tell us ...

In March 1896 the Brunner Mine, off the Grey River, exploded - killing 65 workers ... it was a massive methane explosion ... and still the largest mining or industry accident causing death in New Zealand's history ...

Some miners underground died from the explosion others from the poisonous gases after the explosion ... Experts estimated that anyone surviving the explosion died within three minutes, from the gases

The first miners to arrive on the scene ran into the mine, then had to be rescued themselves as they passed out from the gases ... (So much for "the best time to go into the mine is straight away" ...)

Rescue teams moved into the mine, but could only spend half an hour in the mine before being overcome by gases ... it took some time to get in, but the first bodies were eventually discovered a quarter of a mile into the mine (440 yards ...)

The Brunner Mine was never reopened because it was considered too dangerous - the coal was described at the time as "a fiery gas seam ...."

In 2008 Pike River started a shaft aimed straight at the Brunner Seam ... and in June 2009 reached the seam - described more than 100 years ago as "a fiery gas seam" .. and in November 2010, 17 months later, there was a massive methane explosion ...

The Brunner Seam has now cost at least 94 lives ... and in 100 years, when people have forgotten .. someone else will try to mine it .. And I'll lay good money what will happen again ...

Yes, experts can argue "better technology" than 1896 - but there have now been two more explosions in "a fiery gas seam" ... and a manager talking about a gas line carrying 800 litres per second of methane ... that's a lot of methane ...

NZ is going to be arguing this one for some time ... but maybe the lessons of the past are still relevent ..

[RiderInBlack]

The Brunner Seam has now cost at least 94 lives ... and in 100 years, when people have forgotten .. someone else will try to mine it .. And I'll lay good money what will happen again ...

NZ is going to be arguing this one for some time ... but maybe the lessons of the past are still relevent ..

Personally (having worked with coal as a fuel) I don't think Coal is worth the risk. It is a "Filthy Fuel" that gives off too many dangerous gas when being used. The World should stop using it and work on cleaner fuels and power sources (that's my option).

In saying that, I still feel for their lost. It was their choice to take the risk, but the does not lessen the pain of their lost.

[Maha]

Personally (having worked with coal as a fuel) I don't think Coal is worth the risk. It is a "Filthy Fuel" that gives off too many dangerous gas when being used. The World should stop using it and work on cleaner fuels and power sources (that's my option).

In saying that, I still feel for their lost. It was their choice to take the risk, but the does not lessen the pain of their lost.

I asked that question the other night Doug. What the hell do they do with the coal? Some bloke on TV that has been mining all his working life said ...everything we use in our lives in either grown or mined. Now I know the PC I am currently typing did not grow in the garden or on a tree so it must be made from mined stuff?
Probably not coal. although, looking at it.....