PC brigade already on the offensive at police chases

[Pascal]

Based on the above stats, the Police get a what is a very difficult and risky job right nearly all the time.

I found the data here

I think they get it right as well, particularly based off the data. And if you gloss over that document you can get the impression the IPCA is recommending a change to the pursuit policy.

Now if you read page 10 sections 29 through to 33 you'll see how well their policy is formulated with regards to public safety - the overriding principle for conduct and management of pursuits.

There is a driving training programme for the police; implemented since 2004 with 6415 staff members trained to gold standard. (Does that mean they get a star )

It goes on then to describe the data from page 18 onwards. There are some good examples of pursuit case studies from page 45 onwards and there is some discussion about how well the police apply their current policy.

The major thrust of it seems to be that the guidelines must be clearer for the police although they do go on to say that police should base their decision to pursue on known facts at the time the offender is stopped. Instead of on speculation as to why the driver flees.

It is not a bad document overall. The numbers still bug me though.

[scumdog]

Candor (Campaign Against Drugs On Roads) was set up as a charitable trust, with the Trust Deed specifying Candor's purpose as working on education and lobbying over the Drug Impaired Driver issue. Why has Candor's focus shifted entirely to that of Police Chase activism, with so-called "educational" messages being based on hysterical conspiracy theories about "World Bank Police Control"?

Further, Candor's Trust Deed clearly specifies that "The activities of the Trust will be limited to New Zealand". Why are you talking about going to the US to participate in their deliberations?

I looked up the CANDOR site.

I may have got it wrong (again?) but on the front page they want all these death causing pursuits to cease.

But on the same page they wonder why the G'ovt is dragging the chain regarding roadside impairment testing & legislation. ('Drugged drivers')

So if they DID implement increased drug-impairment testing at the side of the road would you not expect said impaired drivers to do even more runners?

And would you not expect the fuzz to pursue those drivers to test them?

Or does CANDOR want those laws - but not want pursuits involving suspected 'drugged-drivers'?

I'm

[FJRider]

Perhaps more use of 9mm "pursuit equipment" ...

[StoneY]

No here we don't go again Stoney - I deal with enough PROFESSIONAL type groups who intreract in a professional manner not to bother with Bronz Wellington. .

LOL thats almost comical, especially to those who know the truth, and looking at the replies on here...thats EVERYONE

PROFESSIONAL groups now Rachel? Thought you were a non profit trust?

This is not a pissing contest Rachel and no one here is stupid enough to swallow your bait again
BRONZ has real credibilty whatever you may think, say or believe.
Thats why ACC asked us to participate in the formation of the MSL governance structure, so BIKERS (remember this is a BIKERS website) got a say in how the funds ripped from OUR wallets gets used.
What steering groups have Candor been involved with?

Its tragic you have suffered family losses at hands of drunk drivers and all, but your insistence on these conspiricies, the way you present emotional dribble as researched facts and fail to provide evidence, you really think these people are going to buy into it?
Name one 'professional style' group then. Just one, and a name to verify they give you ANY credibility.

Fool me once................... you know the rest

MY opinion on Police Chases for the sake of returning to topic

Some ballance between the UK model and the US model would suit my ideal world
WRX driving specialists to take over dangerous persuits, and bull bars on every day patrol cars to pit manouver the asswipes.
No persuit ends, until it ends

There would be exceptions of course,(maybe schools etc? and that should be NON public policies so no one knows where to run and hide) but thats how I see the way to convince the criminals and mere fools who abuse the law and Police persuit policies............ that its JUST NOT WORTH IT YOU WILL BE CAUGHT because WE WONT QUIT!

My $0.02 (again LOL)

[candor]

LOL thats almost comical, especially to those who know the truth, and looking at the replies on here...thats EVERYONE

PROFESSIONAL groups now Rachel? Thought you were a non profit trust?

This is not a pissing contest Rachel What steering groups have Candor been involved with?

MY opinion on Police Chases for the sake of returning to topic

Some ballance between the UK model and the US model would suit my ideal world
WRX driving specialists to take over dangerous persuits, and bull bars on every day patrol cars to pit manouver the asswipes.
No persuit ends, until it ends

There would be exceptions of course,(maybe schools etc? and that should be NON public policies so no one knows where to run and hide) but thats how I see the way to convince the criminals and mere fools who abuse the law and Police persuit policies............ that its JUST NOT WORTH IT YOU WILL BE CAUGHT because WE WONT QUIT!

My $0.02 (again LOL)

Ha ha Stoney we've been in at ground level on many consultations - helping before the consult document even goes out, so piss away. Trust deeds usually require as Professional an approach and advice to be followed as can be afforded. So yeah we seek that out.

Yes who will die because "we won't quit" - might not always be who you would hope. Like the pro arms Senator never expected to get shot did she, but each to their own.

Providing a link will hardly involve RSI.

I've already asked several questions regarding Candor, which have not been answered.

Candor (Campaign Against Drugs On Roads) was set up as a charitable trust, with the Trust Deed specifying Candor's purpose as working on education and lobbying over the Drug Impaired Driver issue. Why has Candor's focus shifted entirely to that of Police Chase activism, with so-called "educational" messages being based on hysterical conspiracy theories about "World Bank Police Control"?

Further, Candor's Trust Deed clearly specifies that "The activities of the Trust will be limited to New Zealand". Why are you talking about going to the US to participate in their deliberations?

The Police Chase "Survey" you have promoted is proported to be organised by a mysterious Facebook Group called SUPP (Stop Unnecessary Police Pursuits). This group was set up quite literally only hours before you posted the survey link. Who are they? What are their qualifications and what is their operational brief?

It is of great concern when Charitable Trusts (funded by donation) appear to be veering away from their stated and documented purpose. And even greater concern that their modus operandi is becoming increasingly subversive and secretive, with questionable agendas over-riding common sense.

It may be time to take a step back and a couple of deep breaths - your credibility is taking a battering.

God is everyone an armchair critic.

1. Link to prior thread on subject as requested - http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...olice+pursuits

2. Response to hysteical ill informed post by Virago
A) Stop being a drama queen - Candors activity is drug driving (including drink) and chases are highly relevant as 45% of the injury ones the lasat 5 years were triggered by suspected impaired driving - as I explained earlier in the thread. We are lobbying and educating to reduce such carnage, entirely within the Trust brief.
B) I wasn't aware that a teleconference involved travel to the USA, and we are not being active OVERSEAS but we are engaging in mutual knowledge exchange (alongside SUPP) as our Trust Deed requires us to be up with the play and work cooperatively with like minded orgs.
C) If you think our activism/work is solely on Police chases you're sadly mistaken. It is a tiny portion, but we'll go into any area where lives can be saved from DUI, whether it's a popular move or not. Public health specifically road safety is our bizzo, and that can involve consciousness raising.
D) not even addressing your "hysterical conspiracy theory" allegation - too ridiculous, if that was the case that our materials and conclusions were in question we'd not be consulted as a resource by many different parties all the time. The World Bank influences policy here - in the case of road safety adversely - if you don't believe this is possible let alone fact (as it is) you really need broader horizons.
E) Who are SUPP - check out the members; Uni academics, students, human rights/treaty lawyers, emergency workers, driver education people. Enough info for ya?

Secret subversive M.O.!!!! Now who's the conspiracy theorist. All interests etc are declared. We are completely entitled to network, support other groups etc just as they do us. This is the real world. Sheesh we held a drug driving conference well attended by Police and others just before Xmas. Pretty subversive that was I tell ya' - they were so worried we're nuts and about to pull guns on themselves as Bama worshipping world bank lackeys that I just know they had a sniper with a gun trained on me on the balcony. This site is like talk back, oh the drama.

Now to the question on whether we've got conflicting agendas. I don't think so. Yes drug testing might result in more fleeing cops - but then it might also result in less doing so, especially if it was to be made known cops will not pursue minor drug possession charges and searches so long as the driver is responsibly not smashed. As fewer would be wasted given the added deterrence fewer bad decisions to flee?
Random tests don't seem to have increased chases in Oz after an initial upsurge (perhaps unrelated) I believe, and regular tests in Europe (not random but after most bad driving) have created no such problem.

When we say we're after an end to lethal pursuits we don't mean a ban - we do mean modernisation of policy regarding high speed ones to best maximise public safety, to get that pursuit toll to a bare minimum.
Trying to keep it simple... this can mean looking at the whole philosophy - at fewer indications for chasing (ie persistence at speed if someone hasn't quit in a short time) being allowed, employing alternative ways to catch people more, and adopting the norms used in safer realms eg no high speed pursuits outside schools. There are many ways our policy differs from best practice, as the experts have told our media in recent months. The devil is in the detail.

Some here obviously think the policy is "just so" but it can't be as our trauma rate is way high. This is not just a prob for offenders - anyone can be affected. Obviously it needs a holistic look - not just at pursuit policy but at all the things triggering or enabling impaired drivers to do a bolt. As suspecte impaired drivers are half the ones who crash harmfully, are offenders and Police set up by an unsafe system? I'd say so given the ease repeat offenders get relicenced and retain vehicles.

The point is lets look at it in a serious way (Government and community) - just sensationalising it with dumb down headlines, as Pollies pose, achieves nought.

I don't think I'm emotive about it at all, just trying to see ways for improvement. It's more like people flip their lids and get emotive at the suggestion improvements are poss - even seeming to take personal umbrage themselves on behalf of "the Police". Odd that, as Candor supports Police in the good work they do and is well aware of many of their high commitment to safety, but all the policy set for them isn't primo. On holiday now.... hopefully no more curious cats.

[Virago]

...not even addressing your "hysterical conspiracy theory" allegation - too ridiculous, if that was the case that our materials and conclusions were in question we'd not be consulted as a resource by many different parties all the time. The World Bank influences policy here - in the case of road safety adversely - if you don't believe this is possible let alone fact (as it is) you really need to grow up a bit...

Unfortunately, like all conspiracy nutters, you cannot accept that your fanciful world views can be anything other than fact. Until you step back and see that for what it is, you'll never have serious credibility. Shame, but...

[98tls]

Fwiw possibly imposing punishments that actually deter people from doing shit may be a start,personally i cant fucking believe the ongoing inability of those that impose punishments ie Judges to impose them,pick up any court day newspaper in the country and have a read,pathetic is an understatement even more so when it comes to the drink driving thing.What is it in this country that everyone knows what the problems are but nobody steps up and sorts it come court day,drink driving,drivers doing a runner etc its all part of the same problem and for my money the problem is come time to pay the piper its a joke.Fuck all the surveys/discussion blah blah,simply impose a punishment that deters.

[candor]

Virago there is little more ridiculous than making strong comments on something about which you know nothing. My cred is no prob spo theres nothing to be sad about - I assure you, I'm very effective in road safety advocacy, but before you ask I've no need to lay out the achievements for you - plenty of people know about them FWIW.

Back on topis as really it shouldn't be all about me even if the OP started that. How many Judges impose sensible sentences though 98? The full quid? We'll soon have better maximums for drink drive - but minimums? Even this tough on crime Govt is pretty much all window dressers.

[scumdog]

Fwiw possibly imposing punishments that actually deter people from doing shit may be a start,personally i cant fucking believe the ongoing inability of those that impose punishments ie Judges to impose them,pick up any court day newspaper in the country and have a read,pathetic is an understatement even more so when it comes to the drink driving thing.What is it in this country that everyone knows what the problems are but nobody steps up and sorts it come court day,drink driving,drivers doing a runner etc its all part of the same problem and for my money the problem is come time to pay the piper its a joke.Fuck all the surveys/discussion blah blah,simply impose a punishment that deters.

The max. fine allowed for first time drink-driver?

$4,500.

But most times the fine = what the guilty blows, +-

So they blow 680mgm?

Fine will be close to $650 or so.

Wow, get that sort of fine every 5 years or so and it will teach you a lesson!! - pffft!

My thoughts???

For first time up?

Crush the car ( regardless of who owns it unless it was stolen) & 12 months disqually AND $3,000 fine minimum.

I bet THAT would make them sit up and notice!

[98tls]

The max. fine allowed for first time drink-driver?

$4,500.

But most times the fine = what the guilty blows, +-

So they blow 680mgm?

Fine will be close to $650 or so.

Wow, get that sort of fine every 5 years or so and it will teach you a lesson!! - pffft!

My thoughts???

For first time up?

Crush the car ( regardless of who owns it unless it was stolen) & 12 months disqually AND $3,000 fine minimum.

I bet THAT would make them sit up and notice!

Whats the deal with someone that does a runner T,lets say for example bloke has the disco lights light up behind him thinks fuck it and takes off to give it up a few kms down the road?what sort of licence loss etc

[scumdog]

Whats the deal with someone that does a runner T,lets say for example bloke has the disco lights light up behind him thinks fuck it and takes off to give it up a few kms down the road?what sort of licence loss etc

With the way Courts work?

Fuck-all.

Even IF it's:
"Fails to keep Left"
"Fails to Indicate"
"Fails to Stop For Blue & Red Flashing Lights"
"Fails to Stop at Stop Sign"
"Careless Use"
"Learner Driver Failed to Display 'L' Plates"
" Used Smoooth Tyres"

etc...etc

It's better to give them tickets.

Easy to give them enough tickets to get their demerits up to 120+

And THAT gets their licence plucked.

AND the $1,000s worth of fines gets 'em P.D.s

AND they may do somehtign to get their car impounded...BONUS!!

[Virago]

Virago there is little more ridiculous than making strong comments on something about which you know nothing. My cred is no prob spo theres nothing to be sad about - I assure you, I'm very effective in road safety advocacy, but before you ask I've no need to lay out the achievements for you - plenty of people know about them FWIW...

Alas, there is no substitute for common sense.

Fact - the increase in deaths caused by police pursuit is NOT driven by any change in pursuit policy driven by World Bank directives - it is caused by an increase in people doing runners. It ain't rocket science...

There is little credibility in circulating an incredibly silly and unbalanced "survey", to back up your distortions.

[98tls]

With the way Courts work?

Fuck-all.

Even IF it's:
"Fails to keep Left"
"Fails to Indicate"
"Fails to Stop For Blue & Red Flashing Lights"
"Fails to Stop at Stop Sign"
"Careless Use"
"Learner Driver Failed to Display 'L' Plates"
" Used Smoooth Tyres"

etc...etc

It's better to give them tickets.

Easy to give them enough tickets to get their demerits up to 120+

And THAT gets their licence plucked.

AND the $1,000s worth of fines gets 'em P.D.s

AND they may do somehtign to get their car impounded...BONUS!!

Why do you think theres such reluctance on the part of our so called lawmakers etc to do anything about it,Coppers deal with the problems as they come across them ending up with a day in court where the whole system falls flat on its face,its so bloody obvious but nothing changes,just a few promises come election time.

[Genestho]

It's because Judges have to consider circumstances at sentencing, offenders/lawyers sell a pretty picture and the Judges role is to believe it - there's no perjury in court right?

This is due to the Aggravating and Mitigating Factors required and considered in Sentencing and Bill of Rights and various other bits of legislation. As an example; To start if you talk sentencing to jail - 25% off time for pleading early guilt. Proven Hardship...regarding fines and other sanctions..

It's a constant uphill battle and, believe it or not there's been changes, although not consistant - but alot, actually if you're in the know.

I've had low key chats with people and I'll protect their privacy by not mentioning whom, and there's a general unwillingness to dramatically rewrite legislation, which in some cases is what's needed, in most we just need to enforce the law, of course at that point it becomes circular again to what the Judge considers at sentencing.

[Indoo]

Virago there is little more ridiculous than making strong comments on something about which you know nothing. .

You mean like how you immediately jumped on your soapbox after this latest pursuit before knowing any of the facts or full circumstances, and emotively ranted on about how police were insane chasing impaired drivers at 200kmh and insinuating it was all their fault..And then rounded it all off by stating that chases had only become a problem since the boyracer legislation in 2003.

C'mon.