ABS v Non ABS

[MaxCannon]

I can tell you with absolute certainty it's saved me from at least one accident.

Usual story. Taxi not looking where he's going cuts right across my nose.
Road is streaming wet and slippery.
Massive handful of brake, lever is pulsing but I just keep pulling harder on it until I've dropped from 50kph to 5.
Taxi man then sees me and jumps on his anchors blocking almost the entire lane. Nice one champ.
I give him a rude look and steer around him.

Without ABS i'd have crashed.

[slowpoke]

Gotta love some of the reasons given on here for not liking ABS, bless your lil' cotton socks, but you peeples are good for a larf.

Went to a Brian Bernard training day a coupla years back and he did the emergency stop exercise. One run through of the several undertaken was enough to convince me of 2 things:
1, the average rider has little idea of how to truly hard brake let alone emergency brake, even when prepared.
2, the bikes/riders with the shortest stopping distances were all ABS/linked brake type BMW GS or Honda Pan-European things....every single time.

This was against a range of riders including experienced track day and club racers on much lighter machines. One of the ABS riders in particular obviously trusted it implicitly and didn't try to modulate what was already being modulated and his stopping distance on a 290kg tourer was just amazing.

On the flip side the number of experienced riders on pretty decent bikes who under "heavy" braking would hardly dive the front end whilst locking a rear brake for 20 or more metres was kinda disturbing.

If you aren't Andrew Stroud, Craig Shirriffs or Glen Williams don't kid yourself that you have got a hope in hell of ever beating ABS in any conditions. Even that is debatable with Karl Muggeridge winning the German Superbike Championship on an ABS equipped Fireblade and Choppa having a stellar year here on the ABS BMW.

[Gremlin]

Henry told me you can dial the height of the wheelie into the new BMW traction control systems.

I wheelied the GS1200 with it engaged, not a very pleasant experience, it stutters the engine and put it back on the deck again promptly. Got reasonable altitude first though.

Yeah, sorta. The traction control has 3 settings. On, it's intrusive under hard acceleration even on my big GSA. Sport (or off road, or something like that) it will give limited slip before cutting in. Off, and it's a normal bike. It's measuring the wheel speeds of front and rear, and comparing. Same sensors used for ABS.

On was very confusing when I took one for a test. Gassing it hard out of an intersection I felt the front start to lift, then it cut the power so I lurched forward (still holding the throttle), the ECU thought good, everything sweet now, and gave me back the power, only for the bike to lunge forward again and the ECU cut the power. Looked like a real muppet lolling around like a ragdoll.

My preference for the traction control would be sport, but it resets it on every start, and I just can't be bothered continually changing it. Bike must be stopped and in neutral to do so (along with most suspension changes and ABS). Realistically, its a good thing I guess, as it stops impromptu wheelies down streets whenever I feel like it...

[Highlander]

I give him a rude look and steer around him.

Without ABS i'd have crashed.

That would have been one of those withering looks that other riders can see clearly even through the mirrored visor.

[NordieBoy]

you obviuosly havent had decent drum brakes then.My ol honda 175 had a tls front brake and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.They may be even worse at locking a front wheel in the wet as they have a self servo effect at lower speeds.The disadvantage with even the most powerful drum brakes are heat build up ,weight and cost.

Little bro's '74 TS400 is wearing a Suzi T500 TLS front hub. It's a huge monster of a thing and he's had to chamfer quite a bit of pad material away to make it work with some feedback.

The thing I like about discs is the same level of braking at the end of the cross country as the start. VS drums where you'd like the same level at the bottom of the hill as at the top.

[KoroJ]

.........I haven't tested the front ABS yet, but I just about shat my pants when the rear brake lever started vibrating like mad for the first time. Happens quite easily on the back, when unloading the rear of the bike...

You obviously need an ST. One can hear the buzz but the only feeling is lotsa stopping.

Listen smartarse...I make no claims of my own ability....what I am saying is the non ABS braking in the clip is the worst possible scenario, ie: grab a handful and instantly lock up the front end....I doubt even you would be dumb enough to do that!

May be 10% are skilled enough to brake close to the ability of an ABS (I doubt any would better it)....but most of the other 90% will be wary of locking up the front, and their ability would fall between the two extremes....

....Listen to the man that can ride 3000+Km in 40 hours...at a pace leisurly enough to stop to take 40+ photos along the way!

I agree, the clip is a farce and the fact that the non-ABS had the clip-ons says it all. They set out to lock it up and send it sideways. It would have been more realistic if they had stopped both bikes as quickly and safely as possible, then compare the distances.

Lets face it, if there is that much water on the road, one would have to be a total imbecile to plough into it, or through it at normal, dry, speed. I think the term is ride to the conditions.

Don't get me wrong though, my ABS & linked brakes have saved my bacon on several ocassions and I think they're great....but just because I have ABS I don't go slapping them on willy nilly. I still find myself carressing the rear and using a very light touch on the front when the road surface changes and the bod' goes into auto-pucker.

[Edbear]

You obviously need an ST. One can hear the buzz but the only feeling is lotsa stopping.

....Listen to the man that can ride 3000+Km in 40 hours...at a pace leisurly enough to stop to take 40+ photos along the way!

I agree, the clip is a farce and the fact that the non-ABS had the clip-ons says it all. They set out to lock it up and send it sideways. It would have been more realistic if they had stopped both bikes as quickly and safely as possible, then compare the distances.

Lets face it, if there is that much water on the road, one would have to be a total imbecile to plough into it, or through it at normal, dry, speed. I think the term is ride to the conditions.

Don't get me wrong though, my ABS & linked brakes have saved my bacon on several ocassions and I think they're great....but just because I have ABS I don't go slapping them on willy nilly. I still find myself carressing the rear and using a very light touch on the front when the road surface changes and the bod' goes into auto-pucker.

Are you suggesting that regardless, we should ride with our brains switched on and according to the road and weather conditions? Surely not...!

While in 40 years the only issue I've had was dropping the old T500 at the lights in Auckland back in '76 due to grabbing front brake to avoid a Cortina I thought wasn't going to stop and I was only just letting the clutch out to move off at the time... I have never had any issues where I was wishing for ABS as I always ride according to both the conditions and the bike. Ergo, with a single front disc and rear drum, I don't ride like I did on the GSX600F I had or any of the sports bikes I've ridden, and with long-life tyres, I don't pretend I can keep up with, say, a sports bike on sports rubber, either.

Certainly if I were to buy another bike and it had the option of ABS, I'd take it!

[riffer]

GWent to a Brian Bernard training day a coupla years back and he did the emergency stop exercise... the number of experienced riders on pretty decent bikes who under "heavy" braking would hardly dive the front end whilst locking a rear brake for 20 or more metres was kinda disturbing.

Exactly the same situation I discovered on a recent course with Andrew Templeton. I always thought I had pretty good brake control. Emergency braking tests proved to me that I have almost no back end control and will lock the rear every time, even though my front control is great.

The ABS bikes killed me every time by more than 20 metres at 100km/hr.

That's a BIG difference.

[jonbuoy]

Bike magazine did a test a few issues ago ABS on and off - none of the testers could stop quicker without ABS despite thinking they could and some wanting to prove they could.

[Slavvy]

I don't think stopping distance is the only issue here. It's also worth considering that if you lock the front wheel, you then have basically zero ability to manuever the bike. Abs preserves your ability to steer with some normality even while jamming on the brake, and that could easily mean the difference between a narrow miss and an ugly impact.

[jonbuoy]

True, but surprised a few people on the test. Maybe a GP rider doesn´t want/need it but ABS and traction control would be nice when I´m half asleep on the morning commute on the first rain shower of the year.

[Edbear]

After recent events on the road in our now sold Nissan Pulsar, I'm all for ABS! It saved both me and my wife on a couple of occasions from a nasty shunt. There is no way, in either situation that we'd have avoided a bang without it. Ok not life threatening situations but they were emergency braking moments in very slippery conditions.

In my wife's case, she was coming down a steep street and started slipping in the wet as she braked for the T-intersection at the bottom. She was scared of the shuddering and wondered what was wrong with the car. (We'd had it for 12 years so shows how we drive it as she'd never known what the ABS did before). I explained what was happening and that without ABS the car would have become an uncontrolled sled.

In my case, on the M/way, an idiot in an old Volvo wagon took exception to a 4x4 wanting to change lanes, swerved past him on the right hand verge and then slammed his brakes on in front of him! (The 4x4 driver had clearly indicated and begun merging with room to do so, the Volvo driver was just an arrogant sod and after he spent the next k or so weaving in and out of traffic like a twat I potted him.) Anyway, the 4x4 driver and I braked hard and was it not for ABS I reckon I'd have either rear-ended him or slid into the barrier.

Katman would no doubt correctly point out that both incidents were avoidable. In my wife's case, she was taken by surprise at how slippery the slope was, in mine I was automatically at fault being the following driver. However in both cases, we were driving acording to the conditions as we experienced them and the slipperiness of the roads were a surprise. Hence, even if you are being careful and observant, you can find the unexpected. The car was certainly up to the mark as the tyres were barely half worn if that and at the correct pressures.

So ABS every time for us!

[ducatilover]

ABS is nice isn't it Edbear?
My BMW's had face melting brakes and an ABS system you could barely feel. When demonstrating the brakes, quite a lot of my mates would get faint/dizzy after a 1(6)0kp/h to 0 stop
Never driven a Jappa with what I'd call reasonable brakes.

[Edbear]

ABS is nice isn't it Edbear?
My BMW's had face melting brakes and an ABS system you could barely feel. When demonstrating the brakes, quite a lot of my mates would get faint/dizzy after a 1(6)0kp/h to 0 stop
Never driven a Jappa with what I'd call reasonable brakes.

Back in the old days, we had drum brakes prone to fade, cart suspension and lower speeds and traffic numbers. We didn't usually venture out on the roads in the wet and we drove on cross-ply tyres.

The key advantage of ABS is in sudden emergencies in the wet or in adverse surface conditions, such as one wheel off the seal. I had never in my memory, needed the ABS before in the 12years we had the Pulsar so consider it like insurance. You may never use it, but if you do, it's far better to have it than not.

Nowadays we drive everywhere in all weather's at much higher speeds in very dense traffic, (with some very dense drivers...), and ABS should be mandatory for all new vehicles along with air-bags.

Some here insist that such measures are "dumbing down" the drivers but as a motorist/rider of over 40 years and very experienced with only ever one accident, I doubt I'd class it as dumbing myself down. These are practical and necessary safety features for the modern traffic scene. (Along with centre-line bumps to warn the unconscious they are veering out of their lane.)

[ducatilover]

Back in the old days, we had drum brakes prone to fade, cart suspension and lower speeds and traffic numbers. We didn't usually venture out on the roads in the wet and we drove on cross-ply tyres.

The key advantage of ABS is in sudden emergencies in the wet or in adverse surface conditions, such as one wheel off the seal. I had never in my memory, needed the ABS before in the 12years we had the Pulsar so consider it like insurance. You may never use it, but if you do, it's far better to have it than not.

Nowadays we drive everywhere in all weather's at much higher speeds in very dense traffic, (with some very dense drivers...), and ABS should be mandatory for all new vehicles along with air-bags.

Some here insist that such measures are "dumbing down" the drivers but as a motorist/rider of over 40 years and very experienced with only ever one accident, I doubt I'd class it as dumbing myself down. These are practical and necessary safety features for the modern traffic scene. (Along with centre-line bumps to warn the unconscious they are veering out of their lane.)

I agree, the ABS/TSC/TRC/EBD etcetera are not dumbing drivers down.
How many times do you activate any of these systems?
Can you retain control over the vehicle as well without the systems?

The answers are, not many (So we are all out of practice when it comes down to it) and no, 98% of us cannot control the vehicle as well as we think.