Cornering - apex - explain?

[MSTRS:Me]

By the time it's noticed the VP is telling you your speed is too fast for the corner - you have cocked up long before that,and now a wide exit is the result.In a blind corner on a road you have never travelled before,the VP is the last
thing you should be relying on - it doesn't tell you there is a driveway,wandering stock,a slip,a tourist on the wrong side of the road...the list goes on.Sorry,but the Vanishing Point is a long way down on the list of things telling me how to approach a corner.

No, it doesn't. But they don't tell me they are there either, until they come into view.
Whereas I can see the VP waaaay up ahead, and when it 'gets closer' I know that I maybe need to slow down to a speed that allows me to stop in the shortened amount of road I can still see.. If I ignore the VP until I'm in the corner, then if I survive, I should hang up my boots and helmet.

[george formby]

No, it doesn't. But they don't tell me they are there either, until they come into view.
Whereas I can see the VP waaaay up ahead, and when it 'gets closer' I know that I maybe need to slow down to a speed that allows me to stop in the shortened amount of road I can still see.. If I ignore the VP until I'm in the corner, then if I survive, I should hang up my boots and helmet.

Yup. Every hazard is always between the VP & the bike so, for me anyway, it dictates whether I am braking or accelerating. The VP gives me the length of road I have to play with. I guess by choosing a lane position which keeps the VP at the maximum distance away from you, you increase the time & space you have to react when hazards present themselves.
Using ALL the sensory information available & giving each piece relevant weight at that moment, I believe, should be all riders goal. Whether it's for safety, economy or plain old twisting the throttle open.

[Motu]

But they don't tell me they are there either, until they come into view.

Duh - you wait until they come into view? It all sounds like you have no plan,you are just reacting to what you see.You need to be ready before danger comes into view.

[MSTRS:Me]

Duh - you wait until they come into view? It all sounds like you have no plan,you are just reacting to what you see.You need to be ready before danger comes into view.

You being deliberately obtuse? I'm scanning for hints and clues all the time. What I don't see is what is likely to kill me. And what I see, or can guess at from the clues, means I can factor in and adjust for, before I have to react. Subtle difference, but very important. I'm no newbie focussing 10 feet in front of me. Nor do I suffer from tunnel vision.
But still, I'm not so far up my own arse that I can't understand that none of us are immune to being caught out by something we didn't see with time to react.

[Metastable]

If you stay wide until you can SEE the exit is clear you will tend to naturally select the apex as per MT's diagram.

Exactly, this is especially important in a blind corner.

[george formby]

Exactly, this is especially important in a blind corner.

I like it. So, the apex is what you aim for as your exiting the corner on a public road. Prior to exiting you stay in the safest & most visible part of your lane until you can see your way out.

Noice.

[MSTRS:Me]

I like it. So, the apex is what you aim for as your exiting the corner on a public road. Prior to exiting you stay in the safest & most visible part of your lane until you can see your way out.

I think as you tip in to the corner, you aim for the best exit point on the road. Midway between those 2 points, the apex is simply the nearest point you get to the edge of your lane.
That's as I understand apexes.

[george formby]

I think as you tip in to the corner, you aim for the best exit point on the road. Midway between those 2 points, the apex is simply the nearest point you get to the edge of your lane.
That's as I understand apexes.

Ditto. The strangers & metastables posts got me thinking that on a public road opposed to a track you only hit an apex on exit rather than have "proper" double apexes like a circuit. Staying out of trouble is the biggest consideration on the venerable highway.

[Motu]

I'm scanning for hints and clues all the time. What I don't see is what is likely to kill me. And what I see, or can guess at from the clues, means I can factor in and adjust for, before I have to react. Subtle difference, but very important.

OK,now we are finally getting somewhere.You are supposed to be a mentor,teaching riders good habits - this is where you need to start,not dribbling off into ''Vanishing Points'',the very basics of good road craft is where it all comes back too,get that right and the advanced stuff is so much easier to get into their skulls.This needs to be instinct,not something to think about.

[george formby]

OK,now we are finally getting somewhere.You are supposed to be a mentor,teaching riders good habits - this is where you need to start,not dribbling off into ''Vanishing Points'',the very basics of good road craft is where it all comes back too,get that right and the advanced stuff is so much easier to get into their skulls.This needs to be instinct,not something to think about.

Fair call from an instruction perspective.

When I learned to ride (belt driven Excelsior) the vanishing point came straight away & the subtleties of good road craft were fitted into that space.

It was presented to me as looking as far ahead as possible at all times with the VP demonstrating the limit of my bit of road. I guess with training it's not what you start with but just getting started.

I have never thought of the VP being as being advanced.

[MSTRS:Me]

OK,now we are finally getting somewhere.You are supposed to be a mentor,teaching riders good habits - this is where you need to start,not dribbling off into ''Vanishing Points'',the very basics of good road craft is where it all comes back too,get that right and the advanced stuff is so much easier to get into their skulls.This needs to be instinct,not something to think about.

I never said the VP was the only important factor. But I will maintain it is THE most important of everything a rider needs to consider when on a road with semi-obscured corners.
Here's a trick question for you...
Having scanned and noted all the clues, you tip in to the first lovely, sweeping corner of a set of three. What's the last thing that goes through your mind as you set up for the second?

[davebullet]

Having scanned and noted all the clues, you tip in to the first lovely, sweeping corner of a set of three. What's the last thing that goes through your mind as you set up for the second?

"I should have gone to the toilet at the last stop"

[MSTRS:Me]

"I should have gone to the toilet at the last stop"

I did say it was a trick question. Perhaps I should have said 'brain' instead of 'mind'.
Did you see that blackbird/sparrow/whatever that shot out of the bush on your left at head height?
My point is to illustrate what I said in post 49. We can use all our senses and experience, but there's always something we miss that'll catch us out. Just don't let that something be as simple as failing to register a tightening radius curve.

[Motu]

I never said the VP was the only important factor.

This is what you've been implying all the time,I've just been pulling you up on it.Now you admit it's not the most important.And it's certainly nowhere in my sights for an obscured and unknown corner...in such a case the VP is well into the range of safety,not even worth thinking about.

[nadroj]

Same corner from the opposite direction (after the speed sign was erected).