Rodney Hide resigns

[mashman]

I would do my bit, but if someone doesn't work the whole system will fall down, sounds very close to what we have now.

What needs to change is just remove all benefits, from everyone so if you don't work your family has to look after you, or pay someone too.

GOOG GOD I'VE TURNED INTO DON BRASH

Why would it fall down just because someone refuses to work? There will be 2.5 million people available to work, for arguments sake. How many of them work in Finance? Add them to the unemployed list.

What would you then ask them unemployed to do for society? I would request that some took a builder to a farm and set up home next door to the farmer and they shared the farmers workload. Halving the working day of the farmer. Would you become a farmer if you had an extra half a day to play with, knowing that you had also done your bit? again, it's something i'd be more than happy to do. If there are gonna be lazy people, let there be lazy people. What's the worset they can do in a Resource Based Economy where money doesn't exist? they don't need to go out and make a living... in fact they become cannon fodder for the Doctors to practice on .

, sure, go for it... I'm sure it will make the world a safer place as those who "can't" get jobs that pay enough to make ends meet decide to take what you have instead of "contributing".

Don't be hard on yourself... you coulda turned into Clarke

[BoristheBiter]

Why would it fall down just because someone refuses to work? There will be 2.5 million people available to work, for arguments sake. How many of them work in Finance? Add them to the unemployed list.

What would you then ask them unemployed to do for society? I would request that some took a builder to a farm and set up home next door to the farmer and they shared the farmers workload. Halving the working day of the farmer. Would you become a farmer if you had an extra half a day to play with, knowing that you had also done your bit? again, it's something i'd be more than happy to do. If there are gonna be lazy people, let there be lazy people. What's the worset they can do in a Resource Based Economy where money doesn't exist? they don't need to go out and make a living... in fact they become cannon fodder for the Doctors to practice on .

, sure, go for it... I'm sure it will make the world a safer place as those who "can't" get jobs that pay enough to make ends meet decide to take what you have instead of "contributing".

Don't be hard on yourself... you coulda turned into Clarke

What about those that don't want to work?
Your ideals are sound but at some point you will have to deal with those that just don't want to be in or contribute to society.
I already take our extra fruit and swap with others that have extra fruit and veg that i don't have (the joy of living in the country) but i still need other things and i can't see the gas station down the road taking 4 spuds per liter.

And ther is no need for abusive comments like that.

[Mental Trousers]

1. Talk to the country in terms of what we're going for. (someone may alert us to what we've missed)

You do realize that even with the most respected, most powerful, most intelligent people backing the best option it's still impossible for everyone in the country to agree on who should be leading the country?? That's something that the regulations say has to be tested every few years and yet you want to convince people that

1. there's something wrong (many will agree but many won't)
2. there's a better way (this'll split those that think there's something wrong cos everyone has their own ideas)
3. you know the path to get there (split everyone again)
4. everyone has to ditch their current believes, behaviours and way of doing everything (there goes those that have stuck with you so far)

So you go from starting with 4 million people down to a handful.

If there was a way for the human race to get on the fast track and sort this shit out I think a lot more people would have told us what it is by now.

So far you're not convincing me, Boris and most likely many others. Good luck convincing the rest of this little country (let alone the world).

[mashman]

You do realize that even with the most respected, most powerful, most intelligent people backing the best option it's still impossible for everyone in the country to agree on who should be leading the country?? That's something that the regulations say has to be tested every few years and yet you want to convince people that

1. there's something wrong (many will agree but many won't)
2. there's a better way (this'll split those that think there's something wrong cos everyone has their own ideas)
3. you know the path to get there (split everyone again)
4. everyone has to ditch their current believes, behaviours and way of doing everything (there goes those that have stuck with you so far)


So you go from starting with 4 million people down to a handful.

If there was a way for the human race to get on the fast track and sort this shit out I think a lot more people would have told us what it is by now.

So far you're not convincing me, Boris and most likely many others. Good luck convincing the rest of this little country (let alone the world).

Ok, in terms of leadership. I was thinking that there'd be a council of "elders". Hey, "they" may have a few years on us, but they've got experience the likes of which some of us will never obtain in a lifetime. A council of 50 perhaps, 20 maybe, 200 could be the go... a council of wise asses (each with their own responsibilities) figuring out which proposals are worth "implementing". e.g. finding the best shampoo for each type of hair out of all proposed brands, not 10 different varieties with the same ingredients where only one brings you to orgasm in the shower etc... hitting the shelves. The winner hits the shelves (fuckin hell it's shampoo for christ sake, could there be a greater waste of resources?)... i know i know, human nature, vanity etc... If the council are doing a bad job, or any particular members are, or someone up and coming is smarter, then why wouldn't the council member move aside? Have a polling system if you like.

There are probably hundreds of variations as to how you would structure your "governing" body. The above is my preference at the moment... my mind can be changed .

1. There are hundreds of things wrong, I doubt anyone will need convincing of that and pretty much everyone can think of 1. I reckon most will go for crime.
2. Crime: A Resource Based Economy will not rely on finance and hence a financial system. Financially motivated crime sorted. 80 - 90%?
3. I know A path to get there, not the path... but it's certainly a shortcut in comparison to the current strategies that we have. There will be smarter folk with far simpler solutions and a softer, less looney way about them.
4. People can believe what they like, as long as they do so within the rules of society... no different to the current situation that we have.

Quite possibly, but until they are informed and asked, we'll never know .

They have been for years, not many of us have been listening to such pie, pi, pye in the sky. I think the Venus Project crowd say they have about 50 million people subscribing to the idea behind a Resource Based Economy... which really doesn't surprise me at all... shame they don't all live in one place . If it's not talked about and isn't mainstream, how do we expect to find out about it?

Heh, it ain't up to me to convince you as such... I can only offer my "vision", answering questions how I see things panning out... you have to figure out the "best" way of doing things for yourself, if you have the time and energy that is... and it really doesn't take that long to figure out that there are by far better ways of doing things and that they are a matter of will to achieve... Perhaps the current systems are good enough for you. They aren't for me, not by a long chalk. And the current and future strategies being put forwards by our political leaders are shite! They aren't even what I would class as a baby step.

[mashman]

What about those that don't want to work?
Your ideals are sound but at some point you will have to deal with those that just don't want to be in or contribute to society.
I already take our extra fruit and swap with others that have extra fruit and veg that i don't have (the joy of living in the country) but i still need other things and i can't see the gas station down the road taking 4 spuds per liter.

And ther is no need for abusive comments like that.

They just won't work, in excatly the same way that they don't at the moment. Let them for the time being and if no carrot can be found then there's not a lot anyone can really do about it. Although I won't pretend to understand why given the "new" society that'll be around them. Tis that or leave them to die, at which point they'll turn into something entirely different and all to survive. At that point I wouldn't blame them. Although, if I've figure it correctly, there are going to be periods during people's lives where they won't have to work. I mean, there are more than enough people in the country to provide the bare essentials, probably by about a factor of 3. So if 1 in 3 work, we should be sweet. Perhaps there'll be a social penalty card and you won't be able to obtain KFC, only veggies to counteract that they're sittin on their ass , dunno, but you can't force people to work.

Onya for trading your fruit etc... there's a chip shop in Kapiti that has a sign in the window saying that they'll trade chips for Lemons. Fak I'm jealous, I'd love to get back into country living, although properly this time.

[Winston001]

...when I know how much more capable we are. Fuck there's some really smart people out there. Pooling those skills for "us" and not the money whores can only be a good thing?

Damned if I can see how Rodney Hide got us into this discussion.

Anyway Mash, I can only think of two philosophies which espouse what you are saying ie. that humans should work unselfishly and share for the good of everyone.

Communism.

Christianity.

The first has been tried and failed. The second has stumbled in various iterations for 2000 years, sometimes succeeding often not.

So your thinking is not new but good on you.

[Winston001]

Shag! You guys have filled a page wile I refreshed my browser.


Not sure whether you touched on the evolutionary influence.

Humans are social animals and do function in loose herds. We do act altruistically helping others at a cost to ourselves for no payment/benefit. This puzzles psychologists and the theory is that helping the group is an investment in your own safety and well being. If you help your sick neighbour then their family etc may help you in the future.

Which is what happens in a community.

The primal instinct in every animal is selfish. Survival. We can't breed it out of ourselves and indeed its a strength. That instinct drives people to invent things, try new ideas, gather more material wealth so that they are safe from need. The group benefits from the individual's efforts.

[Winston001]

Asian societies tend to be more group focused than anglo-saxons. I'd guess some African ethnicities are too. This allows these societies to grow harmoniously and plan ahead.

The downside is that the individual is made to conform. There isn't much tolerance for disagreement.

[BoristheBiter]

They just won't work, in excatly the same way that they don't at the moment. Let them for the time being and if no carrot can be found then there's not a lot anyone can really do about it. Although I won't pretend to understand why given the "new" society that'll be around them. Tis that or leave them to die, at which point they'll turn into something entirely different and all to survive. At that point I wouldn't blame them. Although, if I've figure it correctly, there are going to be periods during people's lives where they won't have to work. I mean, there are more than enough people in the country to provide the bare essentials, probably by about a factor of 3. So if 1 in 3 work, we should be sweet. Perhaps there'll be a social penalty card and you won't be able to obtain KFC, only veggies to counteract that they're sittin on their ass , dunno, but you can't force people to work.

Onya for trading your fruit etc... there's a chip shop in Kapiti that has a sign in the window saying that they'll trade chips for Lemons. Fak I'm jealous, I'd love to get back into country living, although properly this time.

The problem i see is some of these ones that won't work will just take what they want and i doing so will cause others to hoard and protect what is theirs and so it will come full circle.

This type of thinking has been tried before and has failed due to human greed, and I don't just mean in the west. Most of these ideas are a cross over between tribalism and communism and it just doesn't work at some time someone just says fuck it i want to keep whats mine.

[Mental Trousers]

Heh, it ain't up to me to convince you as such... I can only offer my "vision", answering questions how I see things panning out... you have to figure out the "best" way of doing things for yourself, if you have the time and energy that is... and it really doesn't take that long to figure out that there are by far better ways of doing things and that they are a matter of will to achieve... Perhaps the current systems are good enough for you. They aren't for me, not by a long chalk. And the current and future strategies being put forwards by our political leaders are shite! They aren't even what I would class as a baby step.

You'd do well to provide links that people can take a look at because your vision is just that, your's. To get people thinking along the same lines they need to see what you base this vision on because so far, for me anyway, you've actually done more damage to the idea than good!!

• The Resource Based Economy
• The Venus Project
• Jacque Fresco
• The Venus Project on youtube
• The Venus Project: The Redesign of a Culture
• Welcom to the Future
• Cities in the Sea
• Self-erecting Structures
• Designing the Future
• Future by Design
• Zeitgeist: Addendum
• Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

[Swoop]

...was a training and apprenticeship system (a hiden work for the dole if you like)

Do you truly believe that the apprenticeship system was a glorified "work-for-the-dole" scheme?
If so, the country would be dead on its feet. No electricians, plumbers, carpenters, mechanics, engineers, etc, etc. This system produced intelligent, capable people that kept the country running.

[Winston001]

• The Resource Based Economy
• The Venus Project
• Jacque Fresco
• The Venus Project on youtube
• The Venus Project: The Redesign of a Culture
• Welcom to the Future
• Cities in the Sea
• Self-erecting Structures
• Designing the Future
• Future by Design
• Zeitgeist: Addendum
• Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

Thanks for the links, much appreciated.

[FJRider]

The downside is that the individual is made to conform. There isn't much tolerance for disagreement.

THIS is KB ... disagreement is ... THE NORM ...

[BoristheBiter]

Do you truly believe that the apprenticeship system was a glorified "work-for-the-dole" scheme?
If so, the country would be dead on its feet. No electricians, plumbers, carpenters, mechanics, engineers, etc, etc. This system produced intelligent, capable people that kept the country running.

shit i would have got more money on the dole, and could have stayed in bed all day.
Some of us just want more out of life than others.

[mashman]

You'd do well to provide links that people can take a look at because your vision is just that, your's. To get people thinking along the same lines they need to see what you base this vision on because so far, for me anyway, you've actually done more damage to the idea than good!!

• The Resource Based Economy
• The Venus Project
• Jacque Fresco
• The Venus Project on youtube
• The Venus Project: The Redesign of a Culture
• Welcom to the Future
• Cities in the Sea
• Self-erecting Structures
• Designing the Future
• Future by Design
• Zeitgeist: Addendum
• Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

That's actually quite insulting in ways, but I'm sure it wasn't meant that way . Glad you went and looked though, it's a vision (albeit the guy has it designed. He's no hippy chump... he must have been through hell watching the world go down the gurgler the way it has... knowing what he knows.). I only found those links etc... when someone posted it... probably whilst discussing the same kind of thing . People just ain't workin things out for themselves any more are they? I love the site, but was dissapointed that they didn't have a "roadmap" for how to get there (I missed him in Wellington ). As i said earlier. You've got to figure it out for yourself first. The you know and aren't just being spoonfed or brain washed by somes elses ideology.

I'm not very good at telling people what they want to hear. I'm not wired that way. And an internet forum is hardly the place to get a vision across is it? Facial expressions, tone of voice, gestures etc... they all add to it. I have guilt that I shafted a great idea