The end of growth?

[Winston001]

This post on another thread got me thinking:

We're heading unavoidably into a sharply resource-constrained world, which is going to kill off our ideas of abundance and progress. There's already not enough world to go around so that 9 billion people can live like us - when that constraint gets more obvious I think we'll be forced to do some of the uncomfortable thinking we currently have no appetite for.

I haven't researched the current thinking on economic growth but the standard view throughout my lifetime has been that each nation must grow its economy every year. That growth improves total wealth and the standard of living.

The problem is that now we are hitting the limits. Peak oil. Food prices rising. Water for irrigation and drinking is becoming more scarce. Desertification and salination are removing fertile soils. Fish stocks are disappearing.

Sooo....just thinking about NZ, do we really need to "grow" our economy in the normal sense?

[superman]

This post on another thread got me thinking:



I haven't researched the current thinking on economic growth but the standard view throughout my lifetime has been that each nation must grow its economy every year. That growth improves total wealth and the standard of living.

The problem is that now we are hitting the limits. Peak oil. Food prices rising. Water for irrigation and drinking is becoming more scarce. Desertification and salination are removing fertile soils. Fish stocks are disappearing.

Sooo....just thinking about NZ, do we really need to "grow" our economy in the normal sense?

It also relies on a growing population, which some people reckon will peak soon enough also. I read somewhere most western countries would have a population decrease if it wasn't for immigration.

NZ is lucky in that it has a very low population for our very productive and useful amount of land. I reckon in the next couple of decades food and water will become things to have wars over, so... really we should shove a load of money into defense. Or have an epic coalition with Australia.

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

Sooo....just thinking about NZ, do we really need to "grow" our economy in the normal sense?

No... we become a resource based economy ... basically we look at the resourses available and then decide the best option to get it to the people the require it... (not wants but needs)

Problem it the world needs to be on the same path ... not just one country

[Usarka]

Time for an enlightenment period away from materialistic consumption, we can still have growth and wealth but we need to get away from choosing to throw our hard earned dollars on tvs, cars, stereos, clothes etc.

Imagine for example if everybody went out once a week to a concert, restaurant, theatre show, museum etc etc. The country would be buzzing.

At the moment we sit at home wearing trendy $150 t-shirts that cost $3 to make having spent the afternoon buying a new bread-pressure-rice-blender that's now sitting in the cupboard ulikely to get used, and knock back piss that we bought at the supermarket and watch reality TV all night on our 52 inch LCD thinking how wealthy we are.


PS - peak oil: someone on nat radio the other day suggested oil should be subsidised so we use the remaining stuff up quicker, thereby creating immediate incentive to develop a sustainable alternative. Top thinking that.

[Big Dave]

Time for an enlightenment period away from materialistic consumption,

Have you banged your head again?

[superman]

Imagine for example if everybody went out once a week to a concert, restaurant, theatre show, museum etc etc. The country would be buzzing.

Thinking along such lines I shall just be heading off to listen to a professional quartet at the University of Auckland. It shall be grand. I do try to bring along people as often as possible, problem is people my age are... not so inclined usually. Especially the chickadees who want their gangster shiz to booty shake to, or some Lady Gaga... Honestly the youth are so hopeless.

[Oblivion]

Thinking along such lines I shall just be heading off to listen to a professional quartet at the University of Auckland. It shall be grand. I do try to bring along people as often as possible, problem is people my age are... not so inclined usually. Especially the chickadees who want their gangster shiz to booty shake to, or some Lady Gaga... Honestly the youth are so hopeless.

The old people aren't much better in the same sense now are they?

[slofox]

Honestly the youth are so hopeless.

They always are - and have been forever. Check out ancient Greek stuff - many moans about the " youth of today..."

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

[Oblivion]

They always are - and have been forever. Check out ancient Greek stuff - many moans about the " youth of today..."

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

Like Parents like children. Unless they are taught otherwise.

[scumdog]

They always are - and have been forever. Check out ancient Greek stuff - many moans about the " youth of today..."

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

Hmm...judging by that quote I'm living in ancient Greece...

[FJRider]

Time for an enlightenment period away from materialistic consumption, we can still have growth and wealth but we need to get away from choosing to throw our hard earned dollars on tvs, cars, stereos, clothes etc.

But thats what makes free countries ... so dam .. well ... expensive ...

[slofox]

"There is nothing new in this world"

[oldrider]

Every generation has said the same things and have had the same misgivings about the past while expressing the same fears about the future!

Funny thing is that despite all the negatives that we worry about, the positives still carry us forward.

It's a bit like the share market, where current trends are usually a bit erratic but the difference between the beginning and the end signify enormous progress or growth!

The current generation will always find a way, develop alternative's and ... as in the past, simply move onwards and upwards with life!

The only alternative is to cease to exist, in which case ...

[mashman]

No... we become a resource based economy ... basically we look at the resourses available and then decide the best option to get it to the people the require it... (not wants but needs)

Problem it the world needs to be on the same path ... not just one country

I agree with the Resource Based Economy, it's the only way it'll work, if at all. Although you need to cater for the wants in the short-term, or risk the trauma of cunsumerist withdrawal

The world can't, well, it's highly improbable that the world can do this as one, as it hasn't been tried and tested. The same can be said for every single thing that has happened on this planet. Someone has ALWAYS has to go first.

[MSTRS:Me]

Can someone explain this 'resource economy'?
My take on it is that oil/coal/minerals for example are resources. Finite, though. And we are entering that phase when the resource runs out.
A resource is only effective longterm, if it is replenishable, surely? And any resource that is not...utilising it to achieve growth simply speeds up it's demise.