Rodney Hide resigns

[rainman]

India and China are the 2 most populous countries in the world. Both of them are gradually hauling themselves away from subsistence living. By no means are they there yet, but they're definitely moving that way. As they do, more and more of their people are living in better conditions.

There are statistics out there, but the only thing you can rely on with statistics is that somebody is pushing their own wheel barrow and representing their view point with them.

It think it comes down to whether you think we're heading in the right direction, steadily improving towards a world where everyone will have enough, or not. I guess you're in the first camp. I'm in the second. It's been fun the last 50 years, but we're now at the end of progress.

And progress hasn't been as clearcut as the rosy-tinted spectacle brigade would have it: the west has never stopped screwing over the poor rest, just got better at being less overtly colonial about things. That game's shifting to China, but they're just more of the same, really (or worse, ask the Tibetans). We're heading unavoidably into a sharply resource-constrained world, which is going to kill off our ideas of abundance and progress. There's already not enough world to go around so that 9 billion people can live like us - when that constraint gets more obvious I think we'll be forced to do some of the uncomfortable thinking we currently have no appetite for.

[Swoop]

... it then turned into a hidden work for the dole and jobless figures massaging mechanism

Please explain when this occurred and what was it that caused it to become what you say it is.
I'm interested in your thoughts on this.

[mashman]

Please explain when this occurred and what was it that caused it to become what you say it is.
I'm interested in your thoughts on this.

I first noticed it in the mid-eighties, give or take. I knew some older kids, the ones I used to play football with on the park, and they went did real apprenticeships... not the govt subsidised ones (well not directly, not sure), but it was a career for them, their choice. Your options where outlined as, go to Uni, get a job or go on the dole... If you went on the dole, YTS was in your future like it or not, it was pushed every visit you went. My underdstanding, it was a work placement assigned to you by the govt, subsidised by the govt, a resource for public or private puposes. You did it and got an extra 10 quid a week, on top of your dole money (i think it was 10 quid). And it meant you were working and were not an unemployed statistic (fair enough), even though you were still on the dole, with bonus . It was for, what we thought at the time, the dumb cnuts. If you were thick, you ended up on the YTS. (i now realise the idiocy of that, but I was 13/14 at the time).

It wasn't seen as an apprenticeship. Unless you'd class making coffee and sweeping the floors every day of the week for the rest of your natural life a career choice. Having not been through the scheme, that's about all I know of it. I know of noone who embraced it.

I was on the Job Seekers Allowance once... same thing, different name... still $10 quid extra to sweep the floors etc... (i didn't bother with the extra 10 quid). I cut my hair and was subsequently employed a couple of weeks later (fuckin pathetic).

Anyhoo, long story short. I remember that it used to be a valid career choice. Then it became an excuse to earn an extra $10 quid.

[Quasievil]

Everyone wants the right outcomes for this country, but few people will accept the required pain it will take us to get there.

This takes me back to my original post, if I was the Dictator it would just happen and everyone would just have to get the fuck over it.

[mashman]

Everyone wants the right outcomes for this country, but few people will accept the required pain it will take us to get there.

This takes me back to my original post, if I was the Dictator it would just happen and everyone would just have to get the fuck over it.

Do you mean?

You have 2 lifestyles, ergo 2 styles of leadership to choose from.

This drip feeding of policies we have v's Someone who just makes what seems to be the right decisions for people

A group of trustworthy? guys and gals, that find it more convenient to work off reports and advice?

v's

Your dictatorship. Motivations yet to be disclosed.

And the lifestyle choices would be either a Financial Economy or Resource Based Economy.? to the tune of:

They are very different. You have 6 months to decide and vote. Pick one, because it's the one you'll be stuck with for the next 10 years. 1 of these options will change the life of everyone man, woman, and child in the country. We're putting it in, in 2 years time because you chose it.

Is that the sort of thing you were going for? Bit Brash isn't it

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

I saw the Youth Training Scheme as way to get training rather than getting an ongoing job with your YTS placement.

I started out on YTS, after both school and community college (still without two GCSEs to rub together), at a the main office of a building maintenance company.

None of my friends did YTS and they all thought I was mad to be working for 1 pound an hour (40 pounds for 40 hour week) when you could get only slightly less for working no hours at all.

It was a crap job, and I had to work for one of the biggest assholes I have ever met, but it taught me how to use basic computer office applications and (more importantly) how to act in an office environment.
About 9 months later I went on to an entry level office admin role, at a different company.
No way would I have got that first "proper" job without my YTS experience.

Lots of jobs and years later, I still appreciate what YTS did for me, I messed up and hardly ever went to school but YTS gave me a second opportunity to not be a drop-kick for the rest of my life.

Sorry for diverting the thread but YTS did what it was supposed to do, IMHO.

It wasn't supposed to be a solution to unemployment, or a way of hiding it, but more of a way for young idiots (like I was myself at the time) to get real-world work experience.
What you did with that experience was up to the individual - there is only so much hand holding the state can do.

Just my 2p.

[Quasievil]

Do you mean?

You have 2 lifestyles, ergo 2 styles of leadership to choose from.

This drip feeding of policies we have v's Someone who just makes what seems to be the right decisions for people

A group of trustworthy? guys and gals, that find it more convenient to work off reports and advice?

v's

Your dictatorship. Motivations yet to be disclosed.

And the lifestyle choices would be either a Financial Economy or Resource Based Economy.? to the tune of:

They are very different. You have 6 months to decide and vote. Pick one, because it's the one you'll be stuck with for the next 10 years. 1 of these options will change the life of everyone man, woman, and child in the country. We're putting it in, in 2 years time because you chose it.

Is that the sort of thing you were going for? Bit Brash isn't it

Bit Cryptic aint it, not sure what you mean in your post there Mr Mash

my point is undeniable the country has to and must change, we cant borrow $300mil a week forever can we.
The $$ inputs have to equal the $$ outputs or preferably higher $$ inputs than $$ outputs in an ideal NZ.
NZ has got a MASSIVE expenditure attached to socialist ideals, brought upon us by Vote harvesting governments more interested in staying in power than they are in the countries progress as a whole, to me that is disgusting and reflects the fact that a government is the least desirable organisation to administer the countries affairs. The Government, any government is hopeless at , Health, Education and just about everything they should excel at, whats so fucking hard that a succession of governments over the course of decades still cant figure it out??

seriously whats so damn hard, its easy, especially when you take the government out of it, with politicians out of these areas only then you will see progress.


Things that piss me off are

the welfare system is a burden upon the working members of society..........what would I do or vote for, how about 6 months after you apply and start receiving a benefit it gets stopped therefore you have 6 months to find a job. why do we have 3rd generation beneficiaries in this country

Hospital system enough said, it is a complete and inefficient fuck up, the sooner it is privatized completely the better

Education again hopeless in every respect, I have nothing good to say about it, the sooner its privatized completely the better

People for the most part are not stupid, why do we need the government to have hold of so many of societies fundamental requirements especially in view of the fact they are not very efficient in the delivery of these service, why cant I have a significant tax break to allow me to make these choices myself with MY OWN money, I dont want or need to government and its stupid career politicians to take my money to make decisions for me, I can do it better for myself and my family far better than anyone one else in NZ.

Give me my money back and let me make my choices, sound like ACT policies..........you bet ya!

[Hitcher]

Is the welfare system a burden on the economy because beneficiaries get a vote? There are probably more beneficiaries than non-beneficiaries. Perhaps they should start their own political party. Figure that one out.

[trustme]

Much in all as it pains me to say this, privatising health & education would be a total balls up. Looked at the US health system & how it does not function.
I don't think privatising education would solve a thing , there would be a plethora of service providers all chasing a piece of the pie all looking to make a buck with massive duplication of administration & an overall reduction in efficiency.


Hey wait a minute , that sounds like Bradfords reform of the power industry. Yup my power bill really went down , not. I failed to see how it could possibly result in cheaper power prices. I fail to see how privatising health or education would improve things, undoubtedly they need to be made far more efficient & accountable for their performance

Sometimes privatisation is not the answer

[BoristheBiter]

I first noticed it in the mid-eighties, give or take. I knew some older kids, the ones I used to play football with on the park, and they went did real apprenticeships... not the govt subsidised ones (well not directly, not sure), but it was a career for them, their choice. Your options where outlined as, go to Uni, get a job or go on the dole... If you went on the dole, YTS was in your future like it or not, it was pushed every visit you went. My underdstanding, it was a work placement assigned to you by the govt, subsidised by the govt, a resource for public or private puposes. You did it and got an extra 10 quid a week, on top of your dole money (i think it was 10 quid). And it meant you were working and were not an unemployed statistic (fair enough), even though you were still on the dole, with bonus . It was for, what we thought at the time, the dumb cnuts. If you were thick, you ended up on the YTS. (i now realise the idiocy of that, but I was 13/14 at the time).

It wasn't seen as an apprenticeship. Unless you'd class making coffee and sweeping the floors every day of the week for the rest of your natural life a career choice. Having not been through the scheme, that's about all I know of it. I know of noone who embraced it.

I was on the Job Seekers Allowance once... same thing, different name... still $10 quid extra to sweep the floors etc... (i didn't bother with the extra 10 quid). I cut my hair and was subsequently employed a couple of weeks later (fuckin pathetic).

Anyhoo, long story short. I remember that it used to be a valid career choice. Then it became an excuse to earn an extra $10 quid.

WTF? Quid, in the eighty's? funny i was using dollars.

They still have the same schemes, they pay the employer min wage for the person. they then pay the worker, works if you want to take someone on but can't afford it. we have done it a couple of times, one is now a dairy farmer, the other is now a tradesman.

What is your problem with these types of schemes? It could be the way I am reading your posts but you seem very bitter towards this type of training.
All i see is a win win, gets people off the dole and into work and trained in some type of skill/trade that is needed. better than all these paper pushers working in the Safety and Health sector that have been to uni.

[Quasievil]

Is the welfare system a burden on the economy because beneficiaries get a vote? There are probably more beneficiaries than non-beneficiaries. Perhaps they should start their own political party. Figure that one out.

Only the working should get the right to vote they are the ones paying for everything.

[BoristheBiter]

Bit Cryptic aint it, not sure what you mean in your post there Mr Mash

my point is undeniable the country has to and must change, we cant borrow $300mil a week forever can we.
The $$ inputs have to equal the $$ outputs or preferably higher $$ inputs than $$ outputs in an ideal NZ.
NZ has got a MASSIVE expenditure attached to socialist ideals, brought upon us by Vote harvesting governments more interested in staying in power than they are in the countries progress as a whole, to me that is disgusting and reflects the fact that a government is the least desirable organisation to administer the countries affairs. The Government, any government is hopeless at , Health, Education and just about everything they should excel at, whats so fucking hard that a succession of governments over the course of decades still cant figure it out??

seriously whats so damn hard, its easy, especially when you take the government out of it, with politicians out of these areas only then you will see progress.


Things that piss me off are

the welfare system is a burden upon the working members of society..........what would I do or vote for, how about 6 months after you apply and start receiving a benefit it gets stopped therefore you have 6 months to find a job. why do we have 3rd generation beneficiaries in this country

Hospital system enough said, it is a complete and inefficient fuck up, the sooner it is privatized completely the better

Education again hopeless in every respect, I have nothing good to say about it, the sooner its privatized completely the better

People for the most part are not stupid, why do we need the government to have hold of so many of societies fundamental requirements especially in view of the fact they are not very efficient in the delivery of these service, why cant I have a significant tax break to allow me to make these choices myself with MY OWN money, I dont want or need to government and its stupid career politicians to take my money to make decisions for me, I can do it better for myself and my family far better than anyone one else in NZ.

Give me my money back and let me make my choices, sound like ACT policies..........you bet ya!

+10
Yep labour only got 37% of the vote last time they got into power but because they could make some back hand deals they were able to govern.
So they fucked it all up by giving what the minor partys wanted. time for the shoe to be on the other foot me thinks.

63% didn't want them there, how fucked is our system?

[BoristheBiter]

Is the welfare system a burden on the economy because beneficiaries get a vote? There are probably more beneficiaries than non-beneficiaries. Perhaps they should start their own political party. Figure that one out.

Hone just did.

[Winston001]

I saw the Youth Training Scheme as way to get training rather than getting an ongoing job with your YTS placement...

It wasn't supposed to be a solution to unemployment, or a way of hiding it, but more of a way for young idiots (like I was myself at the time) to get real-world work experience...

They still have the same schemes..

What is your problem with these types of schemes? It could be the way I am reading your posts but you seem very bitter towards this type of training.
All i see is a win win, gets people off the dole and into work and trained in some type of skill/trade that is needed...

I'm with you guys. How can training and learning ever be a bad thing?

Am thinking of a teenager - nice lad, has an after-school job - but is driving his parents crazy by not going to school, going off with his mates when ever he feels like it, bring policemen home...

Anyway he's getting started on one of these training schemes at the SIT polytech, through school. Best thing that could happen to him and I'm glad the system exists.

[pete376403]

+10
Yep labour only got 37% of the vote last time they got into power but because they could make some back hand deals they were able to govern.
So they fucked it all up by giving what the minor partys wanted. time for the shoe to be on the other foot me thinks.

63% didn't want them there, how fucked is our system?

Well obviously National didn't get a majority in the last election either, otherwise they wouldn't have had to form a coalition (ie back hand deals) with ACT, the Maori party and Peter Dunne.