9/11 conspiracy debate

[oneofsix]

It was them damn Aliems I tell you them pesky damn Aliems... Its always the Aliems

Is that them outer-space ones or the spaced out ones, or dem from over the border

[Laava]

Now as for the involvement of the CIA etc, I am a cynical fuck and I reckon - do you honestly think the best equipped secret service in the universe took 10 years to find him?

Don't put them on too big a pedestal, remember that the country was led by GW Bush, a big fuckin moron if ever there was one.

[shrub]

Don't put them on too big a pedestal, remember that the country was led by GW Bush, a big fuckin moron if ever there was one.

No, that's a reflection of human beings and democracy - people voted for Winston Peters, Peter Dunne and Rodney Hide too.

I have a brilliant book by a chap called Richard Clarke who was Clinton's terrorism czar. When George Dubbyabush took over he held a briefing and said words to the effect of "there is a group called Al Qaeda led by a nasty chap called OBL and they really have it in for us. At some stage they will have a shot at fucking our shit up.

He wrote that when he first briefed Condy Rice on Al-Qaeda on January 2001 "her facial expression gave me the impression she had never heard the term before." She then downgraded the position of National Coordinator for Counterterrorism which meant he was demoted and it sent a signal through the national security bureaucracy about the salience they assigned to terrorism. Clarke's memos stopped going to the President; instead they had to pass though a chain of command of National Security Advisor Rice and her deputy Stephen Hadley, who bounced every one of them back.

Then on September 11 2001...

That same year a mate of mine was doing his Masters in Political Science and wanted to study terrorism. He reckoned Al Qaeda were going to be a major player and his supervisor told him to focus on Palestine instead.

[allycatz]

Documentary on Nat Geo looked extensively into why the twin towers failed even after the planes hit, as they had been designed to take the hit of an aircraft (one already had, albeit a small one), being so high. The buildings were designed in such a way as to reduce sway and the floors literally rested on shelf like brackets. Tests of the metal, holding those brackets, showed an inferior substance/weld held those brackets and were not as heat resistent as was originally designed. Thus, when the temp rose from the fire, the floors concertinered.

Reading conspiracy theory books, I've have always wondered if the planes were aimed as high as they were, with the intention that the buildings were designed to stay upright and thus affecting only the top floors. That, and the timing of the hits so early in the morning when later on in the day there would of been so many more people inside.

[MisterD]

I have a brilliant book by a chap called Richard Clarke who was Clinton's terrorism czar. When George Dubbyabush took over he held a briefing and said words to the effect of "there is a group called Al Qaeda led by a nasty chap called OBL and they really have it in for us. At some stage they will have a shot at fucking our shit up.

Imagine if Clinton had had the balls to commit troops to get him rather than just lob a couple of hopeful Tomahawks into Afganistan...

There's probably one of those alternative histories in that, what if the missles had got him? No GW second term, therefore no Obama?

[cbfb]

Now as for the involvement of the CIA etc, I am a cynical fuck and I reckon TPTB turned a few blind eyes because it worked for them, just like I reckon Osama could have been taken out years ago - do you honestly think the best equipped secret service in the universe took 10 years to find him?

I have a brilliant book by a chap called Richard Clarke who was Clinton's terrorism czar. When George Dubbyabush took over he held a briefing and said words to the effect of "there is a group called Al Qaeda led by a nasty chap called OBL and they really have it in for us. At some stage they will have a shot at fucking our shit up.

He wrote that when he first briefed Condy Rice on Al-Qaeda on January 2001 "her facial expression gave me the impression she had never heard the term before." She then downgraded the position of National Coordinator for Counterterrorism which meant he was demoted and it sent a signal through the national security bureaucracy about the salience they assigned to terrorism. Clarke's memos stopped going to the President; instead they had to pass though a chain of command of National Security Advisor Rice and her deputy Stephen Hadley, who bounced every one of them back.

I was listening to the National programme on the way home last night, about 5ish, they had a guy on whose name I forget but was an ex CIA bigwig. Apparently he had briefed Clinton 9 or 10 times to say that they were able to capture Bin Laden, but Clinton refused. Didn't go into reasons why but you have to wonder how much of this could have been avoided.

And I don't know if anyone else is suspicious of this, but no pictures have come out that I've seen and the body (of Bin Laden) has been dumped out at sea - so we've only got Obama's word to go on so far.

[mashman]

Have you ever looked at the construction of an aircraft fuselage? It is a very flimsy construction and relies on its complete shape and structure for its strength. It only requires a small deformation and the whole thing will crumple up. I would have been very suprised had any of the fuselage continued right through the building. However I would also have been extremely suprised if the engines didn't carry right through. Oh! they did.

I've never looked at close quaters, well not behind the inner skin, and I take your point that it's a flimsy construction etc... It's just that of all of the pictures of aircraft crashes I've seen, which granted isn't a whole lot, there has always been something left of the fuselage. Pitting a weight of a plane against some windows, some desks and partitions, doesn't lead me to think that the fuselage would have disintegrated. That doesn't mean it wasn't the case . I just find it hard to accept is all.

Well, the buildings didn't fall quite as straight down as you seem to imply. Have a look at this photo of the Tower 2 collapse and note the top section. http://www.debunking911.com/

Now consider that it wasn't just the weight of the top floors that caused the lower ones to collapse for Towers 1 and 2, it was the impact from the floors above. It wasn't just a stable weight, but a weight hitting at 90% of freefall speed.

Tower 7 is a different story and is at least partly due to design fault. But see http://www.structuremag.org/Archives...sanz-Nov07.pdf for a peer revied study of its collapse.

To a certain degree the first picture on you debunking site leaves me even more confused. It looks as though the top floors started to drop, hit the solid floors below and then started to tilt off... so why did the rest concertina given that the weight wasn't dropping on top of the floors below, but falling off it. Again, not saying it isn't possible, I just don't see that being the case. Especially not for 3 buildings.

It's only my opinion and the simple questions don't seem to have been answered to my satisfaction, let alone the weakening of a corner column (79) of an "irregular" shaped building causing a critical failure of every other support column allowing a vertical collapse. My limited engineering is likely the block , so given what I know (which isn't much) I choose to believe that 3 buildings falling vertically, especially the big ones, doesn't add up. Or was just HUGELY fortunate.

[oneofsix]

Pitting a weight of a plane against some windows, some desks and partitions, doesn't lead me to think that the fuselage would have disintegrated.

Take into account the construction of the buildings. They were a bit unique and most of the strength was in the center column. This plus the heat of the fire helps. The construction also caused the demolition type collapse as the heat weakened the central support structure everything collapses inward.

[Matt Bleck]

but wait there's more.... they catch the guy who's the mastermind of it all, shot him and then bury him at sea................ ummm.........

[oneofsix]

but wait there's more.... they catch the guy who's the mastermind of it all, shot him and then bury him at sea................ ummm.........

but he wasn't the master mind, he was the face, political leader.
Zawahri has been the brains behind bin Laden and his al Qaeda network and is now expected to be the leader
Buried at sea therefore no shrines as a rallying point

[mashman]

Take into account the construction of the buildings. They were a bit unique and most of the strength was in the center column. This plus the heat of the fire helps. The construction also caused the demolition type collapse as the heat weakened the central support structure everything collapses inward.

The first picture of the debunking site shows the top of tower 2 falling off, not collapsing inwards. If there's no pressure on the centre column, because the floors above are falling off not down, then why the collapse of the floors below?

[oneofsix]

The first picture of the debunking site shows the top of tower 2 falling off, not collapsing inwards. If there's no pressure on the centre column, because the floors above are falling off not down, then why the collapse of the floors below?

I will have to check that particular debunk theory but the one I saw had the center column, in layman's terms, melting and dragging everything inward. Those top floors could be the rubble that eventually does for building 7.

[DEATH_INC.]

I think the fuselage bit is easy, take into account the height of the fuselage and the distance between 2 floors....see if you can get it through at 800kmh

[avgas]

Where did you you get your engineering qualifications?

When did you get your ICI explosives and demolitions tickets???

[nodrog:Me]

I think the fuselage bit is easy, take into account the height of the fuselage and the distance between 2 floors....see if you can get it through at 800kmh

I blame David Copperfield.