Osama is dead

[jazfender]

So how was he resisting that required him to be shot in the head if he was unarmed?

I think most people would shoot Bin Laden if he ran towards them, armed or not.

[lakedaemonian]

Dont get me wrong - I'm not worried about him meeting an untimely end at all. Live by the sword die by the sword and I'm sure he knew sooner or later it would come to this.... What does sit a little more uneasily with me is that the USA can enter another country, un invited, kill a bunch of people and leave without so much as a 'sorry about the mess'... Yes - they are allies and yes it is a wierd place not at all like here but imagine how you would feel if a carrier turned up off hawkes bay, flew a mission to Palmerston North, killed a few chaps and flew off with the bodies...

What scares me most of all is that they are very proud of killing him without a trial and away from a theatre of war (arguable). Sure, covert assasination has been practised for ever by the larger countries but if you one bit of good news is you killed someone its not a sign of great health for a community surely? I mean its not up there with landing on the moon or the cure for cancer is it? Maybe the days of lofty goals and the advancement of man are behind us - and thats genuinely sad...

Still - once he threw that stone at the cops, his fate was sealed.... silly boy...

Consider a bit of revisionist history:

It's 1955, ten years after the end of WWII, and we're all still supposedly hunting for Hitler.

The Russians run an op and find Hitler hiding in plain sight immediately adjacent to (pick 1) US Military Academy, West Point or Royal Military Academy, Sandhurt.

Surrounded by thousands of current military and prior service veterans.

That wouldn't just be embarrassing, that would be impossible.....unless of course he was harbored....which appears to be the case with Bin Laden.

So maybe rather than accusing the US of invading a sovereign nation to shoot the world's most wanted terrorist in the face, it might be worth asking why the Pakistanis decided to harbor the very person they claim they have been hunting alongside the US and had no knowledge of his whereabouts.

So Pakistan is a failing failure than fails....either Pakistan's senior leadership in the Army/ISI/Government is full of sh!t...or they are the worst players of "Where's Wally" like, ever.......

To make matters EVEN worse.....the area Bin Laden was nailed was within a military cantonment.

The Pakistan Military Academy is just 2km North of Bin Laden's playboy mansion....easily within an area that would possess static vehicle and pedestrian access/control points, roving vehicle and pedestrian check points, all construction/residency in the area would be subject to security force vetting to avoid properties being used as operational/logistic safe houses for terror attacks in the region.

It just doesn't add up for the Pakistanis.

Osama being dead isn't the story......a slight morale boost in a long unconventional war with no likely to be perceived end.

The Pakistanis being caught out in front of the entire world IS THE STORY.

Front line of Cold War 2.

This could represent a politically expedient opportunity for the US to cut/run from Afghanistan and declare mission accomplished.

Bin Laden's death is of little political value in 2012 election runup.....but if the US government telegraphs a pull out THAT would have potentially huge political value.

And once the US presence in Afghanistan is reduced or removed...reliance on Pakistan for logistical support for the Afghan mission dries up, and Pakistan gets kicked to the curb like a 5 dollar whore.

The US is going to shift heavily to India....and drop Pakistan like a hot potato as soon as humanly possible...Pakistan isn't part of the solution...it's a large part of the problem.

Cold War 2 front lines...I'd just about bet a cold pint that Pakistan will both the cause and the center of the next truly significant inter-regional war.

As to your point of WHY NOT put Bin Laden on trial...my response is WHY?

Why voluntarily give him and his cause more airtime?

Why voluntarily create a perfect media storm?

Why voluntarily give an enemy combatant the priviledge and benefits of the civilian law enforcement and judicial system?

Shoot him in the face and the worst you have to deal with is looking at dope smoking know it all Uni students wearing Che Bin Laden Guevara T-shirts for the next 50 years.

I'm not a fan of the celebration going on....and I think if you look closely most are the redneck right leaning versions of the left wing kids who wear the Che shirts...morons with little understanding of what's going on.

I haven't seen any NY Cops, NY Firemen, those who lost family on 9/11, or current/prior servicemen and women acting like idiots.....to me they look like a doctor has just told them a loved one's cancerous tumor has been removed....but with still a long road ahead to remission and recovery.

[carbonhed]

Lots of stuff

+1 on that. Fuck knows how you deal with Pakistan short of letting India really fuck them over... but Bin Laden... shot in the face and tossed into the Arabian Gulf works for me.

[Winston001]

This has probably been mentioned already but I have to shake my head in wonder at the stumbling by the United States.

1. There are now at least two official versions of the death of Bin Ladin. Firstly he was armed and fighting back, plus one of his wives was killed. But wait - second, he was unarmed but not going peacefully - surprise surprise. And the wife was shot in the leg but is fine.

If - and it isn't clear - but if there was a live video feed then the US administration should have known exactly what happened immediately. If not, they sure as heck knew once the SEALS had returned to base. There wasn't exactly a confusing mob of hundreds involved.

2. Despite billions and billions spent on high technology including stealth capability, one of the helicopters crashed and had to be destroyed. WTF???

It is an echo of the terrible events in the Iranian desert (Operation Eagle Claw) in April 1980. That was the aborted helicoptor mission to rescue the American hostages from Iran. Eight Delta soldiers died. Tragic.


So I'm somewhat bemused about American military capability and their government's ability to get the facts right.

[oneofsix]

I think most people would shoot Bin Laden if he ran towards them, armed or not.

yeah and I can't say I'm seriously upset but it does seem they went to some lengths to keep everyone else they could alive, even pulling them clear before destroying the helicopter when they were is a rush to evacuate. Also did he run towards them? His wife did and only got a bullet in the leg according to the later reports. Seems like it was a kill or capture with the emphasis on kill or maybe emphasis on Osama other targets just neutralise so you can get Osama or as some suggest has he been dead for years??
I don't think he was killed to stop him talking, we all know he was USA trained and bank rolled to begin with, it is not a secret.

[Edbear]

yeah and I can't say I'm seriously upset but it does seem they went to some lengths to keep everyone else they could alive, even pulling them clear before destroying the helicopter when they were is a rush to evacuate. Also did he run towards them? His wife did and only got a bullet in the leg according to the later reports. Seems like it was a kill or capture with the emphasis on kill or maybe emphasis on Osama other targets just neutralise so you can get Osama or as some suggest has he been dead for years??
I don't think he was killed to stop him talking, we all know he was USA trained and bank rolled to begin with, it is not a secret.

Sounds like he'd outlived his usefulness...

[oneofsix]

Sounds like he'd outlived his usefulness...

+1
or was more use dead than alive. Can't help think the timing was just a bit too good. A whole lot of Taliban escape at the start of their spring campaign, Obama is fighting for re-election and he hadn't achieved a notable victory to justify the peace prize and now the worlds "number 1" terrorist is history.

[lakedaemonian]

This has probably been mentioned already but I have to shake my head in wonder at the stumbling by the United States.

1. There are now at least two official versions of the death of Bin Ladin. Firstly he was armed and fighting back, plus one of his wives was killed. But wait - second, he was unarmed but not going peacefully - surprise surprise. And the wife was shot in the leg but is fine.

If - and it isn't clear - but if there was a live video feed then the US administration should have known exactly what happened immediately. If not, they sure as heck knew once the SEALS had returned to base. There wasn't exactly a confusing mob of hundreds involved.

2. Despite billions and billions spent on high technology including stealth capability, one of the helicopters crashed and had to be destroyed. WTF???

It is an echo of the terrible events in the Iranian desert (Operation Eagle Claw) in April 1980. That was the aborted helicoptor mission to rescue the American hostages from Iran. Eight Delta soldiers died. Tragic.


So I'm somewhat bemused about American military capability and their government's ability to get the facts right.

I would agree that the public relations/media operations of the US Administration has been poorly managed.

I think it's likely the raid was recorded and probably securely distributed from lots of angles(including individual soldiers on the ground) video/audio/thermal/whatnot. But even having the best communications gear is no absolute guarantee than communications will operate flawlessly like in a Hollywood movie. There probably were hundreds involved to make the raid possible, but where I suspect the weak leak resides in the many Obama Administration spin control specialists....so I think this relates to poor communication to the PUBLIC, not necessarily poor communication from the military to the civilian adminstration....IF there was, I'm sure the politicians would have hung them out to publicly dry by now

I couldn't disagree more about your comments in regards to Desert One.

For starters, Desert One was a failure in that the loss of rotary wing support led to the mission being scrubbed and the accident on recovery back to friendly lines led to the deaths of 8.

Secondly, Desert One led to the development of a dedicated special operations command and dedicated special operations support units to allow operations such as that to have a better chance of operational success rather than risk of failure from a patchwork of resources and units that had poor interoperability and little cross training.

Finally, even with a major failure of one of the many human and mechanical moving parts in this operational machine that resulted in the loss of a single helicopter the folks on the ground adapted and successfully completed the mission.

So I disagree about the Desert One analogy beyond recognizing that without Desert One the command running the show, the units involved, the gear developed and fielded, and most importantly the expensive lessons learned from it might have prevented the successful OBL raid from being possible with a high likelihood of success.

[lakedaemonian]

+1
or was more use dead than alive. Can't help think the timing was just a bit too good. A whole lot of Taliban escape at the start of their spring campaign, Obama is fighting for re-election and he hadn't achieved a notable victory to justify the peace prize and now the worlds "number 1" terrorist is history.

Personally, I don't think OBL has much value to a 2012 US Presidential elction campaign.

If it was "staged" as some suggest....it would be done FAR closer to the election cycle....especially with the short attention span of the average voter.

Also, if it was "staged" it would surely have been done in a way that would be less embarrassing to the Pakistanis.

Because it couldn't possibly be more embarrassing for the Pakistanis than if they found OBL living under the Pakistani President's desk.

He was found in a cantonment that contained the heart of the Pakistani military: the Pakistan Military Academy from which pretty much ALL Pakistani leadership attend, and also within a secure community in which resides a large chunk of retired senior Pakistani military officers.

Pakistan was "pantsed" in front of the entire world....not exactly something something that would be staged due to the unintended consequences.

I do think the killing of OBL, just might be the opportunity the current administration is looking for to "declare victory" or "mission accomplished" and pull out or draw down in Afghanistan...which very well could play a big part in 2012 electioneering in 12-18 months time.

[oneofsix]

Personally, I don't think OBL has much value to a 2012 US Presidential elction campaign.

If it was "staged" as some suggest....it would be done FAR closer to the election cycle....especially with the short attention span of the average voter.

Also, if it was "staged" it would surely have been done in a way that would be less embarrassing to the Pakistanis.

Because it couldn't possibly be more embarrassing for the Pakistanis than if they found OBL living under the Pakistani President's desk.

He was found in a cantonment that contained the heart of the Pakistani military: the Pakistan Military Academy from which pretty much ALL Pakistani leadership attend, and also within a secure community in which resides a large chunk of retired senior Pakistani military officers.

Pakistan was "pantsed" in front of the entire world....not exactly something something that would be staged due to the unintended consequences.

I do think the killing of OBL, just might be the opportunity the current administration is looking for to "declare victory" or "mission accomplished" and pull out or draw down in Afghanistan...which very well could play a big part in 2012 electioneering in 12-18 months time.

agreed it is a bit early for the average voter to play a part in the final vote but as you point out it sets the stage for pull out talk closer to the vote. Having Pakistan "pantsed" will possibly come back into play later as well, perhaps with a push across the border against the Taliban to further enable the pull out.

[lakedaemonian]

yeah and I can't say I'm seriously upset but it does seem they went to some lengths to keep everyone else they could alive, even pulling them clear before destroying the helicopter when they were is a rush to evacuate. Also did he run towards them? His wife did and only got a bullet in the leg according to the later reports. Seems like it was a kill or capture with the emphasis on kill or maybe emphasis on Osama other targets just neutralise so you can get Osama or as some suggest has he been dead for years??
I don't think he was killed to stop him talking, we all know he was USA trained and bank rolled to begin with, it is not a secret.

I pushback at the many internet conspiracy theories about OBL.

Did the US and OBL have parallel interests in the 80's in trying to bleed the Soviet Union?

Absolutely

Just as the US dollar invested in supporting the Muj was matched dollar for dollar by the Saudis...largely funneled thru the Pakistani ISI as condition of access and support from Pakistan.

Did the US "train and bankroll" OBL?

I seriously doubt it.....this is more internet meme than fact.

OBL was successsful in Pakistan/Afghanistan because he had his own money....much like the wealthy elite Poms who went off the The Great War for some manly adventure.

OBL built a reputation on having his own capital from his family's great wealth and acted the part of logistician. Which is an often overlooked and critically important role in any conflict. He'd be better off with training from FEDEX than the CIA in terms of keeping the Muj chocker full of beans and bullets.

Did the CIA and other western orgs fund/support some bad guys?

Surely...and some decent efforts went into trying to control and remedy this.....one example would be the efforts to recover Stinger MANPADs from the players after the conflict ended(probably to prevent them being used against us in the west someday before expiry).

Probably the biggest failure of the US that is widely regarded and factually based is the proxy war and outsourcing done during the Soviet Occupation. Because Pakistan was basically handed the vast bulk of the money and weapons it was Pakistan that could shape the Soviet occupation resistance to it's own ends.....which included post occupation influence and control and creation of the Taliban to provide strategic depth in it's perpetual conflict with India.

There's a lot the US has done wrong in the region....the largest part being the neglect of a Cold War battlefield chessboard abandoned and allowed to fester into platform for ambitious terrorist attacks....so easy to find realistic fault for neglecting to clean up a mess it helpe to create.

But Osama as a CIA trained and funded Jason Bourne James Bond super assasin is more internet meme, than unfortunate truth.

As far as conspiracy theories go, Im stunned that out of all 76 flavors about 9/11 and Bin Laden that no one seems to look to a simpler more reasonable explanation:

That the 9/11 attacks probably required a level of training, logistical support, and operational management that is almost exclusively the realm of a nation state...much like the Mumbai Massacre which was clearly backed by the ISI pulling the strings of the LeT they created(ISI officers are recorded as being terrorist handlers/operation controllers).

It seems like the finger's been pointed everywhere BUT the ISI.....personally, I think Pakistan is, often knowingly, at the centre of the mess of the last 10 years.

Past performance is indicative of future performance and I think if you have alook at Pakistan's actions since Christmas 1979 I think it paints an interesting picture.

Just my 0.02c

[lakedaemonian]

agreed it is a bit early for the average voter to play a part in the final vote but as you point out it sets the stage for pull out talk closer to the vote. Having Pakistan "pantsed" will possibly come back into play later as well, perhaps with a push across the border against the Taliban to further enable the pull out.

Yeah it's going to get interesting over the next few years in the region....I reckon it could go a couple ways...most of them not good in my opinion

I do think that when the US pulls out of Afghanistan.....it's policy towards Pakistan could change dramatically....I think that's becoming apparent to folks watching that the "friendship" between the two countries(as if countries can be friends) is barely even covering the superficial bases anymore.

Interesting times ahead!

[oneofsix]

Yeah it's going to get interesting over the next few years in the region....I reckon it could go a couple ways...most of them not good in my opinion

I do think that when the US pulls out of Afghanistan.....it's policy towards Pakistan could change dramatically....I think that's becoming apparent to folks watching that the "friendship" between the two countries(as if countries can be friends) is barely even covering the superficial bases anymore.

Interesting times ahead!

your post above makes some interesting points about Pakistan. I don't think the 9/11 attacks absolutely require a nation states involvement but Pakistan would have benefited from the Mumbai attacks, its not like India and Pakistan have been fighting a war or anything
If the US pulls out of Afghanistan why do they need to stay friendly with Pakistan, they would do better being friendlier with India where their database developers and helpdesk services come from
Very interesting time ahead indeed.

[Winston001]

I couldn't disagree more about your comments in regards to Desert One.

For starters, Desert One was a failure in that the loss of rotary wing support led to the mission being scrubbed and the accident on recovery back to friendly lines led to the deaths of 8.

Secondly, Desert One led to the development of a dedicated special operations command..

Finally, even with a major failure of one of the many human and mechanical moving parts in this operational machine that resulted in the loss of a single helicopter the folks on the ground adapted and successfully completed the mission.

Well said. The sandstorm in Desert One didn't help either.

Its still surprising that a helicopter should fail at such a critical point given the months of preparation for the action. Mind you, the Pakistanis may have loosed off an RPG or somesuch from the nearby base in a moment of panic.

Or...things just go wrong. A successful mission despite that which bears out your point. I assume they had a couple of backup machines in the air to get everyone out.

[The Stranger:Me]

This has probably been mentioned already but I have to shake my head in wonder at the stumbling by the United States.

1. There are now at least two official versions of the death of Bin Ladin. Firstly he was armed and fighting back, plus one of his wives was killed. But wait - second, he was unarmed but not going peacefully - surprise surprise. And the wife was shot in the leg but is fine.

If - and it isn't clear - but if there was a live video feed then the US administration should have known exactly what happened immediately. If not, they sure as heck knew once the SEALS had returned to base. There wasn't exactly a confusing mob of hundreds involved.

2. Despite billions and billions spent on high technology including stealth capability, one of the helicopters crashed and had to be destroyed. WTF???

It is an echo of the terrible events in the Iranian desert (Operation Eagle Claw) in April 1980. That was the aborted helicoptor mission to rescue the American hostages from Iran. Eight Delta soldiers died. Tragic.


So I'm somewhat bemused about American military capability and their government's ability to get the facts right.

Come on they deserve some credit, they executed the WTC attacks flawlessly and duped the majority of the world into believing it was some Arabs