Osama is dead

**Jantar** · 11th May 2011, 20:34

Originally Posted by Maki

So killing innocent people is bad? Then the worlds most brutal and reprehensible regime must be the one that kills the most innocents, right? Now, I wonder which regime that is....

That depends on your definitions of regime and innocents. Is someone harbouring a terrorist an innocent? Also. if a terrorist group sets up operation in a school or a hospital who is the guilty party when someone who is not a member of the terrorist group gets hurt or killed?

Is Al Qaida a regime? Is Hazbulla a regime? Is Mugabwe heading a regime seperate from his country's regime?

So many possible definitions that change the answer to your question.

**carbonhed** · 11th May 2011, 20:43

Originally Posted by Maki

No, that's not a country.

But, but but... you said regime. I demand a recount.

**BoristheBiter** · 11th May 2011, 20:47

Originally Posted by Jantar

That depends on your definitions of regime and innocents. Is someone harbouring a terrorist an innocent? Also. if a terrorist group sets up operation in a school or a hospital who is the guilty party when someone who is not a member of the terrorist group gets hurt or killed?

Is Al Qaida a regime? Is Hazbulla a regime? Is Mugabwe heading a regime seperate from his country's regime?

So many possible definitions that change the answer to your question.

I think he was meaning his head friends.

**Winston001** · 11th May 2011, 21:40

Originally Posted by Maki

So killing innocent people is bad? Then the worlds most brutal and reprehensible regime must be the one that kills the most innocents, right? Now, I wonder which regime that is....

China. FTW

**Maki** · 11th May 2011, 21:44

Originally Posted by Winston001

China. FTW

Could very well be right

**BoristheBiter** · 11th May 2011, 22:07

Originally Posted by Maki

Could very well be right

Iran, Libya, Zimbabwe, Are those who you where meaning?

**Maki** · 11th May 2011, 22:24

No, those are small fry. If you consider innocents to be civilians who are not directly involved in a conflict, then I suppose China has killed the most. Not far behind would be the USA, if you are looking at the period after WWII.

http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa06.html

I haven't added up the numbers but it runs into the millions. As you all know, the US "does not keep a body count" so it's hard to get an exact figure.

**Jantar** · 11th May 2011, 23:33

Originally Posted by Maki

No, those are small fry. If you consider innocents to be civilians who are not directly involved in a conflict, then I suppose China has killed the most. Not far behind would be the USA, if you are looking at the period after WWII.

http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa06.html

I haven't added up the numbers but it runs into the millions. As you all know, the US "does not keep a body count" so it's hard to get an exact figure.

That's a great site. Unfortunately they consider acts by any country or group that had even moral support by USA to be acts by USA itself. That's a fail.
There is no definiton of civilians, and in many cases the civilians are in places operated by military factions. Another fail.

Then it lists "The USA destroyer, the US Vincennes in Iranian territorial waters, shoots down an Iranian commercial flight (Iran Air 654) in Iranian airspace killing all 286 passengers." What it doesn't say is that at the time of the incident the Vincennes was involved in a firefight with 2 Iranian gunships when the airliner approached with its transponder squawking on Mode B (military channel). The airliner which was flying direct from a military airfield failed to respond to radio calls on either military or civilian channels.

Sorry, but if I was the weapons officer, already involved in a firefight, and an aircraft approaches squawking Mode B, I wouldn't wait for any radio calls, I'd shoot first and ask questions later.

It was later found that the airliners transponder was squaking Mode C (both military and civilian). In the confusion the destroyer only picked up the military channel.

**Maki** · 11th May 2011, 23:50

I agree with what you say about that site. In any event I think we can also agree that the number of civilians killed in wars involving the USA after WWII runs into the millions and no other regime apart from China can compete. The Chinese of course killed most of theirs within their own borders, in so called "great leap forward" and the cultural revolution.

I see your point re the Vincennes but you could argue that the ship should never have been in Iranian territorial waters in the first place. A weapons officer is just a cog in the machinery and can not as such be considered responsible. You could argue that the US regime is responsible for the deaths by ordering the ship to enter Iranian territorial waters. We all know the consequences of this decision.

A strange myth one sometimes hears is that we now value human life more than we did in the past. I see no evidence to support that claim, none at all.

**Jantar** · 12th May 2011, 00:06

Originally Posted by Maki

...I see your point re the Vincennes but you could argue that the ship should never have been in Iranian territorial waters in the first place. A weapons officer is just a cog in the machinery and can not as such be considered responsible. You could argue that the US regime is responsible for the deaths by ordering the ship to enter Iranian territorial waters. We all know the consequences of this decision.
.....

I'm not sure that the ship was "ordered" into Iranian waters. It's my understanding that it entered Iranian terroritory in pursuit of the gunboats that had been interferring with a freighter and then fired on the Vicennes helicopter that went to assist. But it happened a long time ago and my memory is not as sharp now as it was.

**Mort** · 12th May 2011, 00:36

Pat Condell. The voice of reason.

[youtube]JzD-rnmeiH8[/youtube]

**jaffaonajappa** · 12th May 2011, 00:45

Originally Posted by Mort

Pat Condell. The voice of reason.

Pat Condell for Gov General IMHO.
And statistaclly - one in seven dwarves are dodgy little critters.

**carbonhed** · 12th May 2011, 07:57

Originally Posted by Maki

The Chinese of course killed most of theirs within their own borders, in so called "great leap forward" and the cultural revolution.

Tibet swept under the carpet very neatly but what are they compared to the tens of millions piled on the altar of Leftie ideology... that the US fought against and defeated.

**oneofsix** · 12th May 2011, 08:14

Originally Posted by carbonhed

Tibet swept under the carpet very neatly but what are they compared to the tens of millions piled on the altar of Leftie ideology... that the US fought against and defeated.

Tibet, within the Chinese borders by invasion, not choice. How do the millions killed by Stalin miss out on this discussion, all and the invasion of Afghanistan by the Russians. I suppose the Koran and Vietnam wars are the American's fault as well.