Secret abortions for under 18s? Good shit.

**Edbear** · 16th May 2011, 19:48

Originally Posted by Geeen

Kind of. Thats getting into "at what age are you Legally an Adult". Different can of worms, right next to this on the shelf though.

Christianity has had 2000 odd years to influence Western society so its built into our morality irrespective of whether you are God fearing (WEIRD phrase) or not. At one time a child was not considered human in Japan untill reaching 2 years old. This was reflective of the high infant mortality rate of the time. So, Yes, societal trends do influence morality.

And in one society where the people are long lived, you're not considered and adult able to sit on council until you're 40.

**superman** · 16th May 2011, 19:52

Originally Posted by Edbear

While it would be nice and the ideal for people to be allowed to "mature" based on individual maturity and capability, you can't legislate for that. Parental upbringing has such a wide variety of effects that one person may be mature and responsible well before another, but how do you make laws for that?

Yes, and parents are very influential upon kids to a certain age. IE an 8 year old voting would put down what mummy said.

I think the law not requiring schools/doctors to tell parents about their daughter wanting an abortion is fair. As a parent you should have raised your kids to the best of your ability, to be as open with you as possible about any issues. If she's not open about it, not willing to speak about it, then it's either that you have conveyed to her you are not above controlling the situation or regularly force your wishes upon her without her getting a say in matters. And to me, those parents can receive their just desserts for their own choices in parenting.

Having a non-requirement doesn't stifle good relationships in anyway, and it protects the girl from bad relationships or controlling parents. Fair enough to me.

**Geeen** · 16th May 2011, 19:55

Originally Posted by Edbear

And in one society where the people are long lived, you're not considered and adult able to sit on council until you're 40.

I don't think I'll ever be an Adult

I'm all growed up, but its too much fun being a big kid

**superman** · 16th May 2011, 19:58

Originally Posted by Geeen

Kind of. Thats getting into "at what age are you Legally an Adult". Different can of worms, right next to this on the shelf though.

Christianity has had 2000 odd years to influence Western society so its built into our morality irrespective of whether you are God fearing (WEIRD phrase) or not. At one time a child was not considered human in Japan untill reaching 2 years old. This was reflective of the high infant mortality rate of the time. So, Yes, societal trends do influence morality.

Exactly, a farmer who has a rabbit problem and has to kill rabbits every day won't blink an eye at doing so. A townie seeing it might be absolutely mortified. It's all about perspective.

**Edbear** · 16th May 2011, 19:58

Originally Posted by superman

Yes, and parents are very influential upon kids to a certain age. IE an 8 year old voting would put down what mummy said.

I think the law not requiring schools/doctors to tell parents about their daughter wanting an abortion is fair. As a parent you should have raised your kids to the best of your ability, to be as open with you as possible about any issues. If she's not open about it, not willing to speak about it, then it's either that you have conveyed to her you are not above controlling the situation or regularly force your wishes upon her without her getting a say in matters. And to me, those parents can receive their just desserts for their own choices in parenting.

Having a non-requirement doesn't stifle good relationships in anyway, and it protects the girl from bad relationships or controlling parents. Fair enough to me.

And this is the real problem. Too many parents do not have this kind of trusting and open relationship where they can discuss the facts of life and look at consequences; of planning ahead for the ages where the child will grow and change. Too often it's left up to chance and the so-called "generation gap" comes along.

**Geeen** · 16th May 2011, 20:03

Originally Posted by superman

Exactly, a farmer who has a rabbit problem and has to kill rabbits every day won't blink an eye at doing so. A townie seeing it might be absolutely mortified. It's all about perspective.

Like the Annual cull down South, they got thousands this year and yet my wifes friends are horrified when I say "Rabbits are pests"

**superman** · 16th May 2011, 20:11

Originally Posted by Geeen

Like the Annual cull down South, they got thousands this year and yet my wifes friends are horrified when I say "Rabbits are pests"

Yeah I've seen videos with a farmer having tens of rabbits just around his feet, they must of been everywhere. Footage was from around the 60s I think, and he was just picking them up one by one and snapping their necks.

Education solves everything, if you can understand the farmers direct point of view it becomes a no-brainer to do what he's doing. People just seem to lack the understanding of the overall picture and just see the rabbits dying not all the issues the rabbits cause.

**Flip** · 16th May 2011, 20:12

Originally Posted by Ender EnZed

What made you change your mind?

So you don't distinguish between foetus and embryo?

1, Being a parent and 2, I don't. Higher brain function my ass, hell half the people I work with would fail this test. It's baby in my book, a living human unborn baby. Do you go up to pregnant women and ask when is your fetus due? Its baby murder plain and simple to me.

If my teenage daughter came home pregnant I would not be pleased. However the kids family and I would be more than happy to look after the baby. Its still a human and it what we humans do.

**Geeen** · 16th May 2011, 20:14

"But its a cute widdw bunny

" Thats killing pasture needed to feed livestock so our economy keeps moving.

**superman** · 16th May 2011, 20:23

Originally Posted by Flip

1, Being a parent and 2, I don't. Higher brain function my ass, hell half the people I work with would fail this test. It's baby in my book, a living human unborn baby. Do you go up to pregnant women and ask when is your fetus due? Its baby murder plain and simple to me.

If my teenage daughter came home pregnant I would not be pleased. However the kids family and I would be more than happy to look after the baby. Its still a human and it what we humans do.

The point is, is it her choice or yours?

**Edbear** · 16th May 2011, 20:37

Originally Posted by superman

The point is, is it her choice or yours?

Who has the right to choose to kill another human? It's not her body, it is another human being. The baby is the innocent victim in all this and has no say.

Think about my question above, "Would you approve of this method of murder being used on you because you were inconvenient or not wanted by someone else?"

**superman** · 16th May 2011, 20:50

Originally Posted by Edbear

Who has the right to choose to kill another human? It's not her body, it is another human being. The baby is the innocent victim in all this and has no say.

Think about my question above, "Would you approve of this method of murder being used on you because you were inconvenient or not wanted by someone else?"

As I've said Ed, I'm only for abortion through the very early periods of gestation.

At 4 weeks (AT THE LATEST)

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It has no organs, no brain, just a blood vessel and a primordial gut. And it's about 2mm long.

If I was in it's position I would be thinking ..................................................

If that piece of biological flesh can turn into something inconvenient, detrimental to the future of it's carrier then why be worried getting rid of it? Just get rid of it, before it develops into a thinking feeling foetus.

It's not murder at this stage! That's like saying it's murder to pull the plug on a brain dead human?!

**Edbear** · 16th May 2011, 21:00

Weeks one through four...http://www.pregnancy.org/fetaldevelopment/weeks-1-4

• Ovulation occurs - The time is right; now you just need this egg to be fertilized!

• Conception occurs - Did you know that during your pregnancy that your uterus will increase its capacity by 1000 times?!

• Gender is determined - Immediately upon fertilization your little one is set as a boy or a girl. Ladies, this is one that you can't take credit for since it is up to the sperm to determine the sex of your baby. Sperm carries either a "X" (girl) chromosome or a "Y" (boy) chromosome. (*Hint:* You will have to hold off on picking out the pink or blue until at least the second trimester when the gender will be visible via ultrasound.)

• Implantation - Some spotting (also known as implantation bleeding) may occur about 10 - 14 days after conception. You may believe you are starting your period but generally this bleeding is extremely light and lasts only a day or so.

• Neural tube forms - It will develop into the nervous system (Brain, spinal cord, hair, and skin). Already your baby has the foundation for thought, senses, feeling, and more!

• Heart and primitive circulatory system rapidly form - While still in its beginning stages, this is the very life support system that will carry your child throughout his or her life.

IMHO, a human being with all the rights of a human being. I'm afraid we will have to disgree on this point.
Interesting read..
http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...566772,00.html

**Usarka** · 16th May 2011, 21:24

Links have been made between legalisation of abortions and drops in crime rates.

So they're good for society!

In the book Freakonomics they discussed the drop in crime in the states in the 90's and link this to the legalisation of abortions 15-20 years earlier. They also back this up by comparing different states crime stats vs the year they legalised it. Excerpt: http://freakonomicsbook.com/freakono...pts/chapter-4/

**blue rider** · 16th May 2011, 21:50

Originally Posted by Geeen

Like the Annual cull down South, they got thousands this year and yet my wifes friends are horrified when I say "Rabbits are pests"

i still don't understand why one cant buy rabbits at the butchers, they are really nice in a bit of a redwine sauce, or mustard sauce with gnochi on the side.

there are so many rabbits here, but not to eat? why

as for the topic on hand,

can't get pregnant - not your choice then

think abortions are evil? don't have one