The welfare state

[scumdog]

I have seen some of the kids from the street go to jail, some that went on to further education, some that headed off abroad to work, some head down souff (UK), some become gang members, others join the long family tradition of screwing the system ... they are not stupid prople, they are all intelligent smart bastards in their own ways. They are not lazy, they are efficient with their time, they realise that a low paying job isn't a fair trade off in regards to time v effort they'd have to put in re: cost of living etc... so figure out a smarter way to achieve their level of cashflow... in essence their children want more for themselves... it isn't just the family that guides the child

Intelligent they may be - but the kids do as the oldies do - eke out an existence - they certainly don't really live, more it's 'Groundhog Day' for their whole life.

UNLESS they spread their horizon a bit and realize there IS life outside of Brixton, the Gorbals, South Auckland or wherever and travel a bit and also realise that hey, if they get a job they can get better money etc etc...

[oneofsix]

See .. there's the problem right there .. the Pension was supposed to be for people who needed it - then the non-needy middle class began to demand it on the basis that they had paid taxes all their lives and deserved it - not needed but DESERVED it ...

So people like Don Brash and other rich Capitalist fuckers get a pension because of entitlement - and cost us millions ...

Pensions for those who need it - not for those who don't - Means test the Old Age Pension .. or whatever it's fucking called nowadays ..

do you consider yourself upper or lower class?
"Pension was supposed to be for people who needed it"
"middle class began to demand it"
"So people like Don Brash and other rich Capitalist fuckers get a pension because of entitlement "
The way you avoid blaming the rich for demanding it and then abusing it just makes me wonder. There would not be a lot of modern so called middle class that would be able to save enough to live on in their retirement, not after missing out on the university allowance, working for families and over benefits the rich get by being able to afford to hide their wealth.

[mashman]

Intelligent they may be - but the kids do as the oldies do - eke out an existence - they certainly don't really live, more it's 'Groundhog Day' for their whole life.

UNLESS they spread their horizon a bit and realize there IS life outside of Brixton, the Gorbals, South Auckland or wherever and travel a bit and also realise that hey, if they get a job they can get better money etc etc...

Make yer mind up... do they follow in the footsteps or do they spread their wings

And your day is different how? What's so non-Groundhoggy about your day?

Ugh... money isn't everything to everyone!

[mashman]

The way you avoid blaming the rich for demanding it and then abusing it just makes me wonder. There would not be a lot of modern so called middle class that would be able to save enough to live on in their retirement

and that's the way it will remain... the system is designed to work that way for a purpose (all part of the grand conspiracy mind )

[Brian d marge]

This would have to be one of your dumbest statements yet. How can a pension be risk assessed??
How do you define a productive members of society? I know many people over 65 that a) are still working and b)work a dam site harder than a lot of 20 year olds.




So under that statement you agree with my earlier post of no welfare hand outs at all to anyone.

Risk assessment is a term in the insurance industry used when sizing up well the risk... In Canada even your liking for KFC goes down on your assessment sheet ,,,So add your medical condition to your income ...ie the risk and whatever left is what the insurance ( the state) pays out ,

If half of these oldies had provided for themselves the welfare budget would be half , or that save money could be redirected towards the "productive members " ie Students who Will "are" earing

Or raise the age of retirement till 70 at least

Finally I never said no hand outs, just redirect towards the more productive

Stephen

[scumdog]

Make yer mind up... do they follow in the footsteps or do they spread their wings

And your day is different how? What's so non-Groundhoggy about your day?

Ugh... money isn't everything to everyone!

I was pointing out that despite their intelligence so many don't aspire to do any more than their parents, they never realise there IS more/they could do more - which is maybe all that they want to do.

And my day?

Sometimes I wish it WAS Groundhog Day, I then wouldn't have to think so much or plan ahead.

But mostly I'm glad it isn't.

[Swoop]

It was a Labour government, budget? Pfftt.

I laugh every time I pass the liarbour billboard that promises "zero gst on fruit & veges".
More promises they will not keep, like not paying tax on the first $100 earned each week.



Unfortunately the brain-dead kiwi voter will have forgotten their promised "packet of chewing gum" (in three years time) tax cut from their last fiasco in power.

[oneofsix]

Risk assessment is a term in the insurance industry used when sizing up well the risk... In Canada even your liking for KFC goes down on your assessment sheet ,,,So add your medical condition to your income ...ie the risk and whatever left is what the insurance ( the state) pays out ,

If half of these oldies had provided for themselves the welfare budget would be half , or that save money could be redirected towards the "productive members " ie Students who Will "are" earing

Or raise the age of retirement till 70 at least

Finally I never said no hand outs, just redirect towards the more productive

Stephen

The oldies were providing the pension for their olds, which was the way the world worked at the time. Hence sayings like the kids supporting you in your old age. However after so many of the last generations kids having been killed in 2 world wars governments needed to spread the burden across society.

[Brian d marge]

The oldies were providing the pension for their olds, which was the way the world worked at the time. Hence sayings like the kids supporting you in your old age. However after so many of the last generations kids having been killed in 2 world wars governments needed to spread the burden across society.

Ask the germans, 2 nil , now pay up .......

Stephen

[oneofsix]

Ask the germans, 2 nil , now pay up .......

Stephen

French did that after WW1, hence WW2, especial when you consider the Germans were as much a victim of their alliances as us in WW1 and didn't start the friggin' thing.

[BoristheBiter]

yes we have. I see how you could see it that way. How are they exactly the same ideas? I understand the different points of view, but I don't see the similarities at all.

The end result will be MASSIVELY different. When I was talking about high unemployment rates before, I was talking about it being in the millions, not just a couple hundred thousand that don't want to work, but people who don't have to work . Your way requires 0 unemployment. Sure there will be perceived easy rides under both systems, but in my version the lazy still get fed and noone would really notice them amongst the millions of unemployed, "bludger" problem solved (amongst many others). Your way penalises families for perceived lack of effort, irrespective of hardship or circumstance and smacks of resentment and pettiness... and all because you perceive that you are doing more work than someone else? ...

That's a mighty negative way of looking at it (They can eat themselves to death on KFC for all I care)... ... you've not lived amongst unemployed people for extended periods of time have you? I have seen some of the kids from the street go to jail, some that went on to further education, some that headed off abroad to work, some head down souff (UK), some become gang members, others join the long family tradition of screwing the system ... they are not stupid prople, they are all intelligent smart bastards in their own ways. They are not lazy, they are efficient with their time, they realise that a low paying job isn't a fair trade off in regards to time v effort they'd have to put in re: cost of living etc... so figure out a smarter way to achieve their level of cashflow... in essence their children want more for themselves... it isn't just the family that guides the child

So please, show me where the similarities are again?

Just Different points of view. You say the base level is country where i say it is family.

Actually i have lived in an area of mass unemployment (Newcastle, England) and the place is full of substance abuse, violence and crime. Its full of i want's.
It is full of generations of family's that no nothing of going out to work to earn money or for the betterment of themselves or their family never mind the country.

Yep i guess you are right we don't see it the same as you condone sitting on your arse and getting a hand out , you just call it "They are not lazy, they are efficient with their time, they realise that a low paying job isn't a fair trade off in regards to time v effort they'd have to put in"

You also say " figure out a smarter way to achieve their level of cash flow..." That sound like condoning crime to me.

So what i read from that post is just leave it the way it is except everyone that works puts more in and those that don't get more handouts.

So I guess you are right that the two outcomes will be greatly different as yours will just be the status quo and mine will make the family accountable instead of leaving it up to the rest of us.

[BoristheBiter]

French did that after WW1, hence WW2, especial when you consider the Germans were as much a victim of their alliances as us in WW1 and didn't start the friggin' thing.

Who didn't start what now??

[Brian d marge]

French did that after WW1, hence WW2, especial when you consider the Germans were as much a victim of their alliances as us in WW1 and didn't start the friggin' thing.

Actually on a serious note , that whole mess started way back , before even bismark and the way the Americans and English treated the Germans in international affairs wasnt to hot ..... especially when quote " Germany where all social and political forces of the modern civilization have reached their most advanced form " ( from not so famous dead guy ) and the the English and Americans were Way behind ....

Stephen

[oneofsix]

Actually on a serious note , that whole mess started way back , before even Bismark and the way the Americans and English treated the Germans in international affairs wasnt to hot ..... especially when quote " Germany where all social and political forces of the modern civilization have reached their most advanced form " ( from not so famous dead guy ) and the the English and Americans were Way behind ....

Stephen

Yes but all that just provided a greater excuse for the Germans to honour the treaties they were committed to anyhow

[mashman]

Just Different points of view. You say the base level is country where i say it is family.

Actually i have lived in an area of mass unemployment (Newcastle, England) and the place is full of substance abuse, violence and crime. Its full of i want's.
It is full of generations of family's that no nothing of going out to work to earn money or for the betterment of themselves or their family never mind the country.

Yep i guess you are right we don't see it the same as you condone sitting on your arse and getting a hand out , you just call it "They are not lazy, they are efficient with their time, they realise that a low paying job isn't a fair trade off in regards to time v effort they'd have to put in"

You also say " figure out a smarter way to achieve their level of cash flow..." That sound like condoning crime to me.

So what i read from that post is just leave it the way it is except everyone that works puts more in and those that don't get more handouts.

So I guess you are right that the two outcomes will be greatly different as yours will just be the status quo and mine will make the family accountable instead of leaving it up to the rest of us

Oooook, gotcha.

@ I wants... pot kettle black much ...

I condone it in the context of a free NZ ... as far as our current setup is concerned... it doesn't bother me. Some people will be lazy (in economic terms, it's a prerequisite for keeping inflation down which cracks me the fuck up ... status quo much?), I refuse to let that get under my skin... Funny thing is, they're no more lazy than the kid born into a family that has sound investments and does nothing and has done nothing for a living since they were born... but that's ok, they're not taking your money , not a cent .

@ crime... in the context of a free NZ it wouldn't matter... there wouldn't be any cash flow, just time and required energy for the country (something you could share amongst millions of unemployed people at an hour a day or somefink ). I don't condone ripping people off at all, what they're doing is wholly legal and you ain't gonna change that because it's a vote loser , i love it, bloody funny... also the financial and environmental damage caused by the guys at the bottom pales into significance compared to those up top. The state of humanity and the planet are testament to that.

You forgot the FREE bit BtB... nothing about leaving things the way they are at all

You definately got that last bit arse about face and hell ...