The welfare state

**mashman** · 13th June 2011, 19:39

Originally Posted by BoristheBiter

I would say that a lot of petty crime is due to drugs coming from the inability to find things to do during the day.

If you want to give someone a hand job then by all means go right ahead, what you do in the privacy of your home, or back alley, is your business.

I have never seen anywhere that touted money as the answer, self compliance is the answer.

... isn't that to PAY for the habit? What if it's free? We'll still have "fuck ups" in society... it may be used sensibly? it may even become boring and noone will bother? (same with alcohol?). Perhaps with a whole society at their disposal, your bludgers might do "something" for society. We'll still have police to catch the same nut fucks that are around today. Hopefully we'll get less in the future etc... Who knows. But until you try it??????????

ha ha haaaaaaa

I agree... but only in its purist form (because human beings are quite unpredictable, even to themselves at times))... money seriously clouds the issues and blurs the lines of everything, because you can only afford to do so much (yeah yeah with graft you too can make it)... you have to balance an economy whilst trying to "make" people become "decent". None of that "justice"? you seek is fair without a level playing field imho... money has been proven to be the biggest problem in that regard... and with some quite horrific consequences. I'd like to try something completely different please. Something that doesn't involve kids/adults having their chances cut down because of their perceptions of the mighty $$$ (be it war/poverty/uninterested parents etc...).

Don't get me wrong, it could all go spectacularly wrong too... but I'm betting it won't... at least for a few thousand years.

If you're worried about the social fallout... check the reaction of the people in Belgium to their Government having not truly existed for a year...

**Winston001** · 13th June 2011, 20:30

Originally Posted by oneofsix

The oldies were providing the pension for their olds, which was the way the world worked at the time. Hence sayings like the kids supporting you in your old age. However after so many of the last generations kids having been killed in 2 world wars governments needed to spread the burden across society.

Exactly correct. Good man.

Originally Posted by Quasievil

Hang on a sec, within the Tax I pay isnt there a component that is attributed towards retirement/ namely my retirement? yes would be the answer to that so...

NO would be the answer to that.

Although its not quite so simple.

Decades ago there was a Social Security tax of sixpence in the pound = 3%. This was intended to cover social welfare payments of the old age pension and the dole.

Eventually this amount wasn't enough (perhaps as early as 1952) and this special tax quietly disappeared in the 1970s. However the Social Security tax is the original reason many New Zealanders still believe we pay our own pensions for when we retire. Sadly - we don't.

Current pensions are paid by current taxpayers.

BUT...but...Michael Cullen recently introduced the NZ Super Fund (good on him) which is paid from general taxation, so in that sense, we are all paying a little bit forward. Except since the GFC, the govt have suspended the annual investments.

Secondly, Cullen (again) introduced Kiwisaver which is a true super fund for the individual. And that Quasi is all you get. You pay into it, you get it back. Everything else is just general taxation.

**avgas** · 13th June 2011, 20:53

Originally Posted by Smifffy

Go down to your local SPCA, Red cross, Salvation army, YMCA, Marae, church, community garden, volunteer organisation of choice, and find out how many beneficiaries are there putting in a solid effort to help out. Compare that with the number of willing workers there, who are either supported by a spouse/partner in the workforce, or workers who are there during their time off. Then tell me again how deserving most of these beneficiaries are.

When my g/f at the time moved in with me, she was not on a benefit, but had no work, having left her home town. She went and volunteered at the SPCA cleaning shit from cages, smiling nicely at cunts who were abandoning their 'pets', and doing the run to the vets for the euthing. She'd drop in to feed the critters on Xmas day. Within a couple of months someone came in and offered her a job.

It was one of those jobs that nobody really wanted to do, and she literally wore through the soles of two pairs of shoes doing it.

Yeah I married her

Aye - just to clear something up. So she works for the SPCA, and is not a beneficiary.
Didn't you just defeat your own argument.
As for the Sallys about 70% paid, the others are on pension. Likewise figure is higher for RedCross. I haven't seen anyone on a dpb in a garden that is not their own. Greenpeace - paid. St John - paid........ SPCA - not paid, but many are workers such as vets etc. So not exactly beneficiaries.

Mother in law was in the car with me today, we called into LynnMall on way home from hospital and she was surprise how full the Mall was at 2pm. I had to kindly explain to her that many people don't have to work and the Government pays for them (she is from the US/China). So many people in NZ just muck around all day.

**avgas** · 13th June 2011, 20:58

Originally Posted by Winston001

BUT...but...Michael Cullen recently introduced the NZ Super Fund (good on him) which is paid from general taxation, so in that sense, we are all paying a little bit forward. Except since the GFC, the govt have suspended the annual investments.

Are you sure about that?
Wife was working with that fund in late-2008 till 2009 and she reckons its always had regular incomming payments. I think that must have some truth otherwise where did the "Z" money come from, previous to that they had invested all the money so no liquid capital to put into stuff like buying a refinery and national group of stations. They even lost some money in stuff like Pike River.

Unless they sold up their overseas investments such as Sydney Airport Rail etc But that would take years?????

**Winston001** · 13th June 2011, 22:31

Total assets as at 30 April 2011: NZ$19.15 billion.

Annual investment return since inception on 30 September 2003: 8.04%pa.

No additional funds invested since June 2009.

http://www.nzsuperfund.co.nz/index.a...eID=2145876642

**Smifffy** · 13th June 2011, 22:53

Originally Posted by avgas

Aye - just to clear something up. So she works for the SPCA, and is not a beneficiary.
Didn't you just defeat your own argument.
As for the Sallys about 70% paid, the others are on pension. Likewise figure is higher for RedCross. I haven't seen anyone on a dpb in a garden that is not their own. Greenpeace - paid. St John - paid........ SPCA - not paid, but many are workers such as vets etc. So not exactly beneficiaries.

Mother in law was in the car with me today, we called into LynnMall on way home from hospital and she was surprise how full the Mall was at 2pm. I had to kindly explain to her that many people don't have to work and the Government pays for them (she is from the US/China). So many people in NZ just muck around all day.

I'm talking about the volunteers, not the people on staff. Any of those places I mentioned will be only too happy to accept help from somebody who freely offers it without expecting payment.

What I'm getting at, is that the people that have the most time to offer their services, and are already getting enough money to survive on are nowhere to be seen in most of these places. The majority of the work is being done by people who are also in employment. For the most part volunteers don't even need a CV...

If they were serious about not being labelled bludgers they would indeed be trying to give something back. Sadly most only do when it is part of a community based sentence.

I guess what I was trying to say was clear in my head, but it seems it was misinterpreted by a number of people. Oh well.

To put it straight, for the record: She was not being paid by the SPCA, she was out of work and working there for nothing. A business person who had been providing a service to the SPCA and had seen her there several times and seen her work ethic, came in and offered her a job, when one became available.

The job was a pretty sucky one, but it was paid employment and she took it.

**Brian d marge** · 14th June 2011, 04:38

Seriously
Old people smell
the war was over years ago ...and the ones that did fight are all dead now , The ones Im paying for are from "one night of passion on leave "

Further more have you ever noticed the ratio of butt ugly to pain in the arse ( Thailand not withstanding ) Paulas Bennet ,..... not even when im pissed ...so she will make everyone PAYE

eeeeuuuuuuuu

old people will be dead soon, so all we have to do is tread water , until sanity comes back. We have computers now , old people cant even switch them on .....

they still use telephones and leave voice messages .....sod knows what Global Warming means to them .......

Any way, once we get rid of Farmers ( and the aged are gone ) and we move towards a knowledge economy , every one will have a lot more money and this debate will have little relevance

IMHO

Stephen

**scissorhands** · 14th June 2011, 06:15

Yawn.... 5:55am....what really bugs me about this thread is the putting something back mentality

What is being put back? Most people are lining their own nest, maybe destroying goodness working in some environmentally harmful and unnecessary career, all the while convinced that they are the good ones putting something back

Say I work for a motorcycle company selling parts or bikes whatever. What am I putting back? Selling unnecessary toys smelling of vain longings, for mid life crises men needing to fulfil something which is lost to them, actually unnecessary and may kill them. Same with snack foods.

Then you have the advertising and marketing people, politicians constantly arguing amongst themselves, social engineering dressed up as TV and movie industry...........it goes on and on and on, do we actually need so many pets? Are they happy being pets. As an industry and expenditure, how much time and money is spend on pets as our penis extension I mean ego extension????????

It may be that by 'putting something back' and working, you are proliferating a broken machine. And as a conscientious objector does not go to war, someone who chooses not to be a part of the system, may in some weird convoluted way be a positive agent for change

Glamour and vanity are rampant, and we convince ourselves we are doing good things, when self and greed are our real motivators

I believe that once society gets really spiritual and ethical, from the top down, the children and dispossessed at the bottom will be more motivated to join in and contribute

**scumdog** · 14th June 2011, 08:12

Originally Posted by Brian d'marge

Seriously
Old people smell
the war was over years ago ...and the ones that did fight are all dead now , The ones Im paying for are from "one night of passion on leave "

Further more have you ever noticed the ratio of butt ugly to pain in the arse ( Thailand not withstanding ) Paulas Bennet ,..... not even when im pissed ...so she will make everyone PAYE

eeeeuuuuuuuu

old people will be dead soon, so all we have to do is tread water , until sanity comes back. We have computers now , old people cant even switch them on .....

they still use telephones and leave voice messages .....sod knows what Global Warming means to them .......

Any way, once we get rid of Farmers ( and the aged are gone ) and we move towards a knowledge economy , every one will have a lot more money and this debate will have little relevance

IMHO

Stephen

Pissed?

or forgot to take your meds??

**Clockwork** · 14th June 2011, 08:43

Wasn't there an abortive attempt at some sort of pension fund in the seventies. Thought I'd heard somewhere along the way Piggy robbed it and promised everyone the state would take care of them when they retired.

Anyone recall any more on this or have I just imagined it?

**Winston001** · 14th June 2011, 13:20

Yes Clockwork although I can't remember the precise details.

The Bill Rowling led Labour Government in 1974 enacted a compulsory superannuation scheme where each of us had personal accounts. National led by Robert Muldoon repealed the law when elected in late 1975. The money was returned to workers.

Its been viewed as a terrible decision in hindsight. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/super-fund...ectid=10465138

**BoristheBiter** · 14th June 2011, 13:48

Originally Posted by Brian d'marge

Seriously
Old people smell
the war was over years ago ...and the ones that did fight are all dead now , The ones Im paying for are from "one night of passion on leave "

Further more have you ever noticed the ratio of butt ugly to pain in the arse ( Thailand not withstanding ) Paulas Bennet ,..... not even when im pissed ...so she will make everyone PAYE

eeeeuuuuuuuu

old people will be dead soon, so all we have to do is tread water , until sanity comes back. We have computers now , old people cant even switch them on .....

they still use telephones and leave voice messages .....sod knows what Global Warming means to them .......

Any way, once we get rid of Farmers ( and the aged are gone ) and we move towards a knowledge economy , every one will have a lot more money and this debate will have little relevance

IMHO

Stephen

Get back under your bridge as that isn't even worth the effort.