Could a "heavy" racer win?

[Robert Taylor]

you Protested you won and I got disqaulified eh, well done crasher. now go and tighten ya clip ons properlly. CBR cams checked officaually after manfield, GSXR cams and cases after Pukekohe, Boring dude, if it;s NOT prooven, it;s only rumour and Bull shit

I think the whole clip on thing is worthy of a post in itself, there was exactly the same issue in the States and that took some time to unravel. Its only when we alerted the manufacturer of the problem that they owned up to it. BPF forks with thin wall upper tubes and sliding glide bushings that at ''full closed'' will work in the area of the handlebar clamps are a real issue. This doesnt always show itself in the pits but under load ''on track'' bind occurs.
Aftermarket clamps are poorly toleranced and will distort sliding surfaces while under racetrack load. I will put up a post about this as no-one should go through the grief Craig did with aftermarket clamps.

[Shaun]

I think the whole clip on thing is worthy of a post in itself, there was exactly the same issue in the States and that took some time to unravel. Its only when we alerted the manufacturer of the problem that they owned up to it. BPF forks with thin wall upper tubes and sliding glide bushings that at ''full closed'' will work in the area of the handlebar clamps are a real issue. This doesnt always show itself in the pits but under load ''on track'' bind occurs.
Aftermarket clamps are poorly toleranced and will distort sliding surfaces while under racetrack load. I will put up a post about this as no-one should go through the grief Craig did with aftermarket clamps.

Good on ya, people do need to be made aware of it, especially with the Internet shopping going on, some one may purchase a set as they may be cheap, but they are also crap and DANGEROUS

[SWERVE]

Have had a similar problem with custom made clip-ons for my 675.... made by a "so-called" race engineer.............. they are currently living in the scrap bin.
bet this problem is more common than you think.

[Shaun]

Have had a similar problem with custom made clip-ons for my 675.... made by a "so-called" race engineer.............. they are currently living in the scrap bin.
bet this problem is more common than you think.

STD IS BEST, ( Tourqued up properlly) they even Crash better normally

[schrodingers cat]

That's cute. But the second law of motion more closely states that the change is momentum is related to force x time.

I am in no way saying that they will be faster or slower, just that they do not have any more or less grip.

Come at me.

Absolutely correct.

But the question essentially was whether or not more weight (mass) should be an advantage.

Your calculations presume the same speed, corner radius and friction constant of the tyre.

To go faster, the question needs to be what is the friction potential of the tyre at any given state and how to realise that. (Actual friction circle performance vs theoretical)

As stated before, tyre temp and tyre compound are major contributors in relation to loading (non linear load/grip relationship) and influenced by rider position and suspension settings to load and control the contact patch.
Rider technique juggles the corner radii (because on the road or race track it is extremly rare to have a constant radius for more than 30m at the extremes of grip) to achieve maximum possible traction in the appropriate direction so as to maintain best lap time.

My point is that if there two riders of identical ability, riding the same bike on the same track under the same conditions the lighter rider would be faster.

At World Class level it is more difficult for a heavier rider to overcome his inherant disadvantage.

Fortunately, at lower levels there are so many variables, the negative impact of being heavier isn't as obvious.

The rider who get more things right wins.

Besides, it is cheaper to eat less pies than spend money on titanium and carbon fibre...

[Kickaha]

Besides, it is cheaper to eat less pies than spend money on titanium and carbon fibre...

Nowhere near as much wank factor though

[slowpoke]

Facepalm.

Please read. I am not saying that a heavy rider can accelerate or brake as fast as a light rider, as there are limits on horsepower.

All I am saying is that a heavy rider and a light rider given infinite horsepower and braking power, would reach the limits of their tires at the same point.

I have said nothing about actual speed. Only about the limits of their tires which was brought up by the OP.

Easy big fulla, take off the cranky pants and put on something a lil' more comfortable.

How are people are supposed to read " a heavy rider and a light rider given infinite horsepower and braking power, would reach the limits of their tires at the same point." out of you're post? And when I can find a bike with "infinite horsepower and braking power" I might actually come back and revisit your argument....

Until then I'll content myself with the fact that mass has to be accelerated and decelerated in a straight line as well as centripetally. So given a difference in mass there has to be a difference in force (Force =Mass x Acceleration).

We're also trying to exert this force to travel a set distance in the shortest amount of time, right? Which equals Work. Work = (Force x Distance)/Time? And what is the unit of Work? Horsepower. Therefore for 2 riders of different weight to travel the same distance in the same time the heavier rider must use more horsepower (work done by engine, brakes, tyres). But if we're talking equally talented riders on equal bikes performing the same work, the heavier rider must take longer.

This is very simplistic, but it's how it sits ok in my head.

[gixerracer]

you Protested you won and I got disqaulified eh, well done crasher. now go and tighten ya clip ons properlly. CBR cams checked officaually after manfield, GSXR cams and cases after Pukekohe, Boring dude, if it;s NOT prooven, it;s only rumour and Bull shit

Geez y so defensive Shaun I seem to have struck a nerve? Y would I bother protesting in NZ what would be the point we all no how that system works.
I Didnt say anything about cams but now you have bought them up it leaves me wondering. Have you forgotten the conversation we had about the front forks on your championship winning cbr 6?????????? Memory loss is a bitch sometimes ae

[Shaun]

Geez y so defensive Shaun I seem to have struck a nerve? Y would I bother protesting in NZ what would be the point we all no how that system works.
I Didnt say anything about cams but now you have bought them up it leaves me wondering. Have you forgotten the conversation we had about the front forks on your championship winning cbr 6?????????? Memory loss is a bitch sometimes ae

No Memory loss dude, I won U lost simple

[lostinflyz]

Absolutely correct.

But the question essentially was whether or not more weight (mass) should be an advantage.

Your calculations presume the same speed, corner radius and friction constant of the tyre.

To go faster, the question needs to be what is the friction potential of the tyre at any given state and how to realise that. (Actual friction circle performance vs theoretical)

As stated before, tyre temp and tyre compound are major contributors in relation to loading (non linear load/grip relationship) and influenced by rider position and suspension settings to load and control the contact patch.
Rider technique juggles the corner radii (because on the road or race track it is extremly rare to have a constant radius for more than 30m at the extremes of grip) to achieve maximum possible traction in the appropriate direction so as to maintain best lap time.

My point is that if there two riders of identical ability, riding the same bike on the same track under the same conditions the lighter rider would be faster.

At World Class level it is more difficult for a heavier rider to overcome his inherant disadvantage.

really..........

http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/...factor_is.html

The idea of identically talented riders and spec'd bikes on a track is useless as it is easily possible for their to be situations where either the heavier or lighter ride would launched from the bike due to being unable or unable to place load in a certain position to maintain the neccesary rate of acceleration/turning/deceleration. So in this hypothetical situation all you would have is one fast rider and one broken rider.

The whole argument surrounding rider weight to tyre grip is meaningless without considering the whole picture.

[gixerracer]

No Memory loss dude, I won U lost simple

Hahahahahahaha nice comeback

[crazy man]

I'm completely naive about racing, not having any knowledge about it at all.

I've been trying to learn more about tyres recently. The subject complexity greatly exceeds my abilities.

One thing I have learned though is that tyre traction is greatly related to "weight".

This got me thinking; a lot of effort goes into making motorbikes lighter for greater acceleration - but this must come at the cost of reduced traction.

If a 1000cc bike is being ridden so that it is constantly breaking traction on the track; then perhaps the rider would be better to actually make the bike heavier again, as more traction would surely result in greater acceleration. Otherwise it seems to me that you just have more power than you are able to use.

that fat Sheriffs guy once won a race Robert Taylor told me

[schrodingers cat]

really..........

http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/...factor_is.html

The whole argument surrounding rider weight to tyre grip is meaningless without considering the whole picture.

Fantastic find. Read and noted.

I did think it was clear that I do consider the whole picture.

Ans I must say that a 72kg 'heavyweight' is scarely a fatty...

[Kickaha]

Ans I must say that a 72kg 'heavyweight' is scarely a fatty...

If it is then I am morbidly obese, not quite as heavy as that fat cunt Shirrifs though

[gixerracer]

that fat Sheriffs guy once won a race Robert Taylor told me

Dont ever beleive anything that cunt tells you