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Thread: Leaky buildings. Thinking of buying a post '95 home? Own one?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    I have reasonable experience evaluating/investigating houses, particularly of late houses built between 1990 and 2011 (yes...leaky houses STILL BEING BUILT!!) that have tended to have cladding systems that put them at high risk of leaking. It is amazing, you can walk into a house that looks all fine and dandy on the inside still (ie no mushrooms or mould growing anywhere) and yet thermal imaging and moisture testing show very wet timber behind the GIB.

    If anyone would like, PM me & I will give you my number. I am happy to answer questions you may have. Hate to see people get stuck with a lemon property!
    I am very skeptical of claims revolving around thermal imaging. Do you mind if I ask what qualifications you have?


    Quote Originally Posted by Quasievil View Post
    Really I havent heard this at all, how exactly do you keep this quiet in this modern age, sounds like bullshit to me
    Then you are out of touch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quasievil View Post
    Bullshit, the main contributor to leaky homes was the builders, end of story.
    Now that is really is bullshit, and serves to demonstrate an incredibly superficial understanding of the industry and its governance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quasievil View Post
    NOT ONCE did I see an issue where the material was to blame 100% of the cases where completely absolutely SOLEY down to the muppets installing the product.
    Then your eyes have either been disconnected or you are in denial ( I rather think the latter given your previous role). Fibre cement is a crap product for wall cladding. It should only be used for soffits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quasievil View Post
    Typical issues where, no control or expansion joints, no interfloor control joints, no cover around windows (not the aluminium joinery suppliers minimised the reduced the outside flange which gave 5 mm cover at best on windows) no sealant around windows, using product on top of ballastrades (hardie tex and the like is not a roof material) poor fastenings, no building paper..............the list goes on and on
    All due to poor installation, never due to product.
    All perfectly fine up to the last sentence. The product does fail regularly. I know this for a fact as I have investigated multiple WHRS claims and seen it with my own eyes.
    JH isn't paying out millions of dollars each year in confidential settlements out of the goodness of their hearts (they have none)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spearfish View Post
    I'm a bit confused how a water barrier full of nails will keep water out.
    How does the building wrap keep water out if its punctured by all the nails/screws that hold the battens on especially punctures in the sticky tape stuff around the windows were your more likely to put more battens and of course nail holes. If the battens get wet from a cladding leak the water will travel around the batten surly?
    Is there a rubber tape behind the cavity battens or does the nail hole self seal?

    Or should the house be built out of heavily treated timber "just in case"
    Yes use H3.2 treated timber to be sure it will last, as contrary to popular misconception we never have nor never will build homes that don't leak.

    Yes nail and staple holes do allow moisture ingress which can result in decay if in sufficient quantities and/or timber is untreated. The flashing tape will seal around the fixing (in most instances) but not so the wrap. The cladding on a cavity system is a rain screen (sheds the water) and some moisture will penetrate through it at junctions. However, If the cavity system is installed correctly there are few bridging points that allow the water to transfer across the cavity, so the risk of moisture entering at fixings is greatly reduced (from direct fixed) Cavities are a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laava View Post
    Ah but the old houses did leak too, but as they were generally draughty they tended to dry up before they rotted. Also they had better timber for framig like rimu or even kauri. I am working on a historical bach at Oakura at the mo and it has been leaking for years and guess what? It has lots of rot and waterstains.
    When you build new, the difference the air seal makes around the windows is very noticeable. It stops noise as well as air movement, but the air movement is the aim. I have gone back to putting facing boards around the windows and so far, touch wood, have had no issues. One in particular is very exposed and gets hammered by rain
    Gold there. Mandatory introduction of building wraps then insulation started the change, then allowing allowing the use of untreated framing. Fuckwits.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangerous View Post
    again, treatment is CRAP... only there to cover the councils arse again why? cos we build leaking buildings, stop the leaks and no need for treatment... like the old days.
    No! That is the 'Crap'. Houses always have leaked and always will. The timber used, while untreated was more durable (as most was native). Also as stated earlier by a wiser head, the walls could dry out very quickly because they were draughty as all get out. BTW You can't use chem free anywhere now.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangerous View Post
    cavity battens are ther so as any water gets in it will track down and out... we only do it to cover the councils arse.
    Not so. They are there to cover the owners arse. The builders arse is rarely covered as it is usually long gone or too boney to be worth covering. Cavities are highly recommended as they are the most effective method of preventing water from entering the wall framing (given that wall cladding is not effectively and consistently waterproof) and they allow air circulation to dry out water that does enter into the cavity.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangerous View Post
    air seal... a positive change, crap thats what the idea is... explain why 100yr old house still stand as do 40yr old houses, no air seal at all.. no leaks either... again bulshit from the council and an extra cost to the home builder. No need for em if we didnt build leaking buildings.
    You only say that because you don't understand what it is there for. With the advent of wraps, insulation and sealed cladding systems the air pressure difference between inside and outside of buildings becomes more pronounced. Surface water passing over risk junctions like window edges is readily sucked in at the these junctions (lacking air seals) as the pressure differential is balanced by air moving through those unsealed junctions. The idea is to stop the airflow that is sucking the water in. The flashing tapes and wrap should extend all the way back into and past the inside face of the trimmers and be stapled in place there (rather than within the trimmed opening where water might penetrate through fixings. The air seal (formed at the inside face of the wall framing) prevents the moisture from entering past that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangerous View Post
    there is many different figgers, council dont use 3604 they have far larger instructions in this case G4. It isent so much the floor height that is the issue but the clearance of the cladding.
    However YES it is just what they are ment to check... BUT remember we are talking about up to 15yr old buildings.
    G4 is interior ventilation and has nothing to do with concrete floors. E1 is the clause governing floor levels. Those given in NZBC E1/AS1 and NZS3604 are the same (as are those in E2/AS1) and most other relevant publications. Whilst they are recommended, they are not mandatory. But your comment re cladding clearance is not incorrect (in most situations)

    Quote Originally Posted by dangerous View Post
    For others infomation, that knob on the video in the 1st post tahe reckons its still going on is lacking info.
    Unfortunately that is incorrect. I have shut down several jobs over the last few years due to grossly defective workmanship. Many/most builders still don't understand the basic mechanics of water entry into buildings and create defects in areas where plan details are lacking. Even more designers fit into the same category.

    The removal of timber treatment was and is the single biggest factor determining the cost and extent of remediation work that is required. Untreated framing is what is driving the complete removal of wall cladding and replacement with new cladding on cavity systems. I estimate that between 60 to 70% of cost relates back to this single failure.

    If framing treatment had been retained we would not have a leaky building disaster to deal with as leaks could have been fixed as targeted repairs (like in the good old days)




    As for the OP...
    I was rather unexcited by the expose on matters that I have been well aware of and have been discouraged from discussing dating right back to 2002 when I first expressed my views on the parties and other causative factors responsible (very few new discoveries since).

    Conspicuous in their absence were discussion re;

    Cladding manufacturers (Oh where to start?).

    BRANZ..... They got off very lightly.

    Sealant manufacturers (and the like) who supply cartridges of sealant by the hundreds of thousands without out any evidence of corresponding volumes of product primers which are applicable in approx 80 to 90% of the sealant applications.

    Contributory negligence in cases of significant owner failures to carry out advised preventative maintenance (particularly by Ostrich like body corps)

    Negligence of buyers who either didn't get a qualified building surveyor to do a PROPER pre purchase inspection of their most expensive purchase.

    The fact that (IMO) the lions share of builders negligence lies at the feet of the owner builders who had no clue as to the hidden costs in all the details that weren't shown on their $1000 set of plans and who, though pushing the envelope of their finances right at the start, decided (in their infinite wisdom) that they would save tens of thousand$ by using unqualified labour only contractors and cheap (uncontrolled) subbies who had priced poorly scoped (by the ignorant) contracts which frequently resulted in under lapping responsibilities and countless un-budgeted requirements. As I recall, these people couldn't afford to finish their builds and would knowingly cut corners. In my experience I estimate more than half of the houses built between the mid eighties and beyond 2000 were built by owner builders. Where are they now?

    The market were provided the level of competence that they demanded of the industry. Every house buyer shares in that responsibility.

    If Councils and Certifiers failed in their performance requirements with respect to the Building Act, what of the failure of the BIA in respect to its auditing responsibilities.

    There really is a whole lot more to it than has been revealed to the public so far.

    Frankly, it's all a sham propelled and steered by politics and it ain't ever going to get fixed even half properly.


    I am a qualified WHRS assessor, building surveyor, expert witness (ex builder and construction manager) and have assessed and reported on multiple weathertightness claims. I also process building consent applications for a number of councils and provide overflow inspection services to ACC when I'm not engaged by insurance companies to investigate/report/give evidence on construction related claims (not all leakers)
    Political correctness: a doctrine which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd from the clean end.

  2. #77
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    you have taken my posts out of context, I agree with you maybe you missed my 1st post, I dont explain myself to well at times and try to keep it basic for those wanting to learn here.
    Yes houses have leaked BUT never as bad as they do today... WHY is that, I know you know but its still allowd.
    E1 G4 what ever ya want, I used that as an example, its not what I deal with so apart from the leaking home section and I sure as hell dont want to explain that here, avarage Jo dont need to know.
    I often get jamed in an akward situation with court battles between lawers, owners, the builder, all subs involved, devloper and architec, I have to watch what I say which often means not telling the full truth.
    cheers DD
    (Definately Dodgy)



  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcrocodile46 View Post
    I am a qualified WHRS assessor, building surveyor, expert witness (ex builder and construction manager)
    So everyones fault except Builders lol...........your dillusional

    at the end of the day the BUILDER is the contractor responsible for everything, and if he isnt, then he isnt a builder rather a monkey with a nail gun, which is the case in 90% of NZ builders hence our problems

    oooooo oooooo eeeeeee eeeeee arrr arrrr arrrr
    Ive run out of fucks to give

  4. #79
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    Is it a case of the builders (even qualified ones) knowingly doing shoddy work because they knew it would get signed off by the inspectors/council, therefore passing any responsibility to someone else.

    The lack of personal responsibility is a big issue in all walks of life but thats another whole topic.
    I mentioned vegetables once, but I think I got away with it...........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quasievil View Post
    at the end of the day the BUILDER is the contractor responsible for everything, and if he isnt, then he isnt a builder rather a monkey with a nail gun, which is the case in 90% of NZ builders hence our problems
    And I might add again... if the builder does not do what is asked he wont get paid, there are those out ther that think they know beter... if the builder dont get paid he cant feed the family, now see my post below...


    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    Is it a case of the builders (even qualified ones) knowingly doing shoddy work because they knew it would get signed off by the inspectors/council, therefore passing any responsibility to someone else.

    The lack of personal responsibility is a big issue in all walks of life but thats another whole topic.
    Ahhh, but that is changing with the introduction of the LBH (licenced Building Practitioner) it is availble now and will be inforced in 2014.

    I however disagree with it, eg: the only guy in the company I work for that has it is a farking usless twat with no idea what so ever you wouldnt believe the stories I could tell you.
    Also its a money making gig... pay ya 350 get a licence, repay next year... weres the money go, fuck knows.
    What this now allows is an indervidual carpenter on wages open to go to court cos he did as he was orded by his boss, boss gets money employ gets a new arse hole ripped.
    cheers DD
    (Definately Dodgy)



  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quasievil View Post
    So everyones fault except Builders lol...........your dillusional

    at the end of the day the BUILDER is the contractor responsible for everything, and if he isnt, then he isnt a builder rather a monkey with a nail gun, which is the case in 90% of NZ builders hence our problems

    oooooo oooooo eeeeeee eeeeee arrr arrrr arrrr
    No he's not saying that, rather that the builder is not the only one to blame as per your previous posts.
    Only a Rat can win a Rat Race!

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    Is it a case of the builders (even qualified ones) knowingly doing shoddy work because they knew it would get signed off by the inspectors/council, therefore passing any responsibility to someone else.

    The lack of personal responsibility is a big issue in all walks of life but thats another whole topic.
    if its on the council approved plan thats how its done, i know a plumber who installed a overflow on a internal deck in case the drain blocked and he got a bollocking from the architect, because he thought it spoiled his "vision" of how the house should look, turned into ww3 between builder,architect, owner and plumber the end result was the plumber saying if you want me to warranty my work this is how its being done so fuck you

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangerous View Post
    you have taken my posts out of context, I agree with you maybe you missed my 1st post, I dont explain myself to well at times and try to keep it basic for those wanting to learn here.
    I did wonder if you had watered things down a mite. I have seen a number of your posts in the past which indicate that you are an experienced builder and helpful. I often stay away from discussion about it with Joe public because it is so complex that it can't be simply told in a short period. So subsequently tell only a portion of it (which is misleading). It's a shit because then people go off half cocked and that bugs the shit out of me. Hence why I posted about it and why I don't like to.

    Sorry if I came down on some of your comments, as most were on the mark and usually are.
    Political correctness: a doctrine which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd from the clean end.

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    There are also developers like Double Happy Lucky with your money Long Time Construction Co who employ "trades on a piece meal basis for instance

    Footing and floor team
    Builder stands the frames and trusses and is gone
    Larry Windows fixes the openings
    Wang Chung Cladding Shaggers wrap, flash and plaster the building leaving off the important clear, hard to inspect to see if its actually been done, sealer.
    Hong Kong Phooeys painting service rolls a thin pigment "sealing" the plaster
    40 kids with hammers file out of a van and hit plasterboard until they run out of places to throw it.
    Rice is Nice Plasterers get the poorly fixed gib ready for Hong Kong Phooeys painting services.
    Jacky Chans tiling services with the motto "If your regular tiler says "you need a water proofing membrane", your paying to much" walk in and arse up a box or of tiles over some semi flat porous surfaces.

    Payless homes sell the house and the first winter it leaks, owners contact the council, council go "shyt" look up the house file and find the one regestration number on the plans, so who is that then? The builder who stood the timber and left. Council phone builder with hysterical cries of foul play and lawyers etc, builder takes a breath and says "I didnt build the house just stood the frames" council says "yeah that's original prove it in court". builder refers the liability process back to the developer with the name often using the the letters Xiu who strangely enough has skipped the country..

    This strange story sadly isn't a work of fiction, a development a few houses away had this story to the birth of a defective but "modern" cave.
    "Your talent determines what you can do. Your motivation determines how much you are willing to do. Your attitude determines how well you do it."
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quasievil View Post
    So everyones fault except Builders lol...........your dillusional
    I never said that at all and nor did I infer it.

    I see you are one of those people who, when it is pointed out that the words in your mouth are shit, you fall back (like a lamer) to putting words into the mouths of others.

    Yeah! You did work for hardies didn't you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quasievil View Post
    at the end of the day the BUILDER is the contractor responsible for everything, and if he isnt, then he isnt a builder rather a monkey with a nail gun, which is the case in 90% of NZ builders hence our problems

    oooooo oooooo eeeeeee eeeeee arrr arrrr arrrr
    You don't read too good huh! I estimate that the builders who built over half of these problem houses, was the owner (who knowingly accepted the cheapest labour only prices off unqualified hammer hands and organized all the other trades ). In this instance the hammer hand is not the builder.

    Go back and re read my post. then try to keep your allegations based in some facts eh!. If that is too much of a challenge, just shut up.
    Political correctness: a doctrine which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd from the clean end.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spearfish View Post
    There are also developers like Double Happy Lucky with your money Long Time Construction Co who employ "trades on a piece meal basis for instance

    Footing and floor team
    Builder stands the frames and trusses and is gone
    Larry Windows fixes the openings
    Wang Chung Cladding Shaggers wrap, flash and plaster the building leaving off the important clear, hard to inspect to see if its actually been done, sealer.
    Hong Kong Phooeys painting service rolls a thin pigment "sealing" the plaster
    40 kids with hammers file out of a van and hit plasterboard until they run out of places to throw it.
    Rice is Nice Plasterers get the poorly fixed gib ready for Hong Kong Phooeys painting services.
    Jacky Chans tiling services with the motto "If your regular tiler says "you need a water proofing membrane", your paying to much" walk in and arse up a box or of tiles over some semi flat porous surfaces.

    Payless homes sell the house and the first winter it leaks, owners contact the council, council go "shyt" look up the house file and find the one regestration number on the plans, so who is that then? The builder who stood the timber and left. Council phone builder with hysterical cries of foul play and lawyers etc, builder takes a breath and says "I didnt build the house just stood the frames" council says "yeah that's original prove it in court". builder refers the liability process back to the developer with the name often using the the letters Xiu who strangely enough has skipped the country..

    This strange story sadly isn't a work of fiction, a development a few houses away had this story to the birth of a defective but "modern" cave.
    Lol. So true.

    Though I might point out that some Asian builders actually try harder to get up to speed with compliance documents and technical instructions than their kiwi counterparts. Some are pretty good builders. There are worse but I am reluctant to start a race war. The worst liar I have come across was a Dutchman who point blank lied about the length of his holding down bolts. (said they were 120 when they were all only 60mm).
    Political correctness: a doctrine which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd from the clean end.

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    How are commerical buildings,appartments,schools and a lot of residential homes cleaned? And we wonder why houses leak now more than ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcrocodile46 View Post
    Lol. So true.

    Though I might point out that some Asian builders actually try harder to get up to speed with compliance documents and technical instructions than their kiwi counterparts. Some are pretty good builders. There are worse but I am reluctant to start a race war. The worst liar I have come across was a Dutchman who point blank lied about the length of his holding down bolts. (said they were 120 when they were all only 60mm).
    But the rub comes from the repair bill that seems to exceed the original cost of the entire house project with council and central govt picking up half and the owner the rest.
    I can understand some of it after seeing a 2 story house compost bin being repaired with the floor joists rotten almost 3 feet in from the ends on one side....but some seem like there is a bit of gouging going on. Either that or the insurance component is extreme.
    "Your talent determines what you can do. Your motivation determines how much you are willing to do. Your attitude determines how well you do it."
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    timber treatment (h1.2 or H3.1) would only have postponed the problems,the timber would eventually have rotted and the same remedial action would be required,perhaps more work would be required as the water may have progressed even further in to the house
    .Proper treated timber (h3.2) is the ultimate solution but that stuff is dangerous too(arsenic copper etc).Untreated timber was dumb,but as stated above it is not the only reason for all the remedial work required.What we really need to do is to use a naturally durable timber that doesnt reqire any treatment

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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWST? View Post
    timber treatment (h1.2 or H3.1) would only have postponed the problems,the timber would eventually have rotted and the same remedial action would be required,perhaps more work would be required as the water may have progressed even further in to the house
    .Proper treated timber (h3.2) is the ultimate solution but that stuff is dangerous too(arsenic copper etc).Untreated timber was dumb,but as stated above it is not the only reason for all the remedial work required.What we really need to do is to use a naturally durable timber that doesnt reqire any treatment
    Concrete or stone?
    "Your talent determines what you can do. Your motivation determines how much you are willing to do. Your attitude determines how well you do it."
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