Benefits

**shrub** · 2nd September 2011, 11:55

Originally Posted by Ocean1

P'raps. Back to the old nature vs nurture innit.

I know too many bad kids from good parents and vice versa to believe there's much nurture in that recipe.

yeah, there will always be exceptions, and for many years I was one (until I nearly killed myself and realised I needed to grow up), but you can stack the odds. How many kids from private schools end up on a lifetime benefit compared to kids from low decile schools? Would it be too hard to try and find a way to get the kinds of attitudes that you and I have instilled in kids heading for trouble?

**mashman** · 2nd September 2011, 17:43

Originally Posted by shrub

I'm no different to anyone - OK, maybe a little bigger, fatter and balder than most, but that's about it. The difference between me sitting working away at a thesis that is already attracting attention from universities overseas and the guy across town who will spend today smoking weed and doing nothing is our expectations of ourselves. He has no expectations of himself beyond the banal because he has no belief in what he can do and have.

Have you ever considered the possibility that people who don't know what they want to do when they grow up, choose not to do anything until they find something that they want to do?

Originally Posted by shrub

The challenge to us as a society is to find a way to get those kids now and change their beliefs and expectations about themselves. Many of their parents are beyond redemption, but the kids aren't. Imagine if we could just get 20% of the kids on a one way ticket to benefit addiction to believe that they can own their own home, hold down a well paid job and live without drugs. Worth working towards? Or should we just go back to the default of ignoring them until they hit the papers?

I agree that we need to find a way to get the kids and parents educated. However I strongly disagree that any kid or adult is beyond redemption. You offer them enough money to do something and they'll most likely do it.

Shame that money is the only incentive. I highly doubt there is any other form of incentive that would motivate those who not only don't need/want motivation, confidence courses or classes on how to become a better human, but are more than happy with what they have. Underestimate happiness at yer own peril

I find it funny that doleys are considered thick or lazy or lack confidence or constantly take drugs or have no direction etc... I have found, in the past, that they are quite the opposite... but that coulda just been because they were Scots

**Winston001** · 2nd September 2011, 18:16

Originally Posted by mashman

You offer them enough money to do something and they'll most likely do it.

Shame that money is the only incentive. I highly doubt there is any other form of incentive that would motivate those who not only don't need/want motivation....

That is a common misunderstanding. Being paid for work is important in the sense that it enables a person to put food on the table, clothes, and a roof over the head. However studies show that a pay increase has only a temporary positive effect.

Odd as it might seem, work isn't about money (once you get above the basic wage). Work provides a person with a reason to get out of bed each day, a purpose in life. It also provides social contact with other people, feeling valued, learning to do new stuff, and most importantly a sense of self-worth.

Regrettably many employers do not understand these elements and wonder why they lose staff.

**frogfeaturesFZR** · 2nd September 2011, 19:17

Odd as it might seem, work isn't about money (once you get above the basic wage). Work provides a person with a reason to get out of bed each day, a purpose in life. It also provides social contact with other people, feeling valued, learning to do new stuff, and most importantly a sense of self-worth. End quote.

I work at Work and Income, the point I try to make to the people I see is that work itself is a form of therapy, a cheaper type of counseling really. Sounds mad I know, but it's true.

**mashman** · 2nd September 2011, 19:34

Originally Posted by Winston001

That is a common misunderstanding. Being paid for work is important in the sense that it enables a person to put food on the table, clothes, and a roof over the head. However studies show that a pay increase has only a temporary positive effect.

Not sure where pay increases came into it? I did say "enough" money too. Here, Mr Doley, I'll pay you 100k to become a bin man v's Mr Doley, I'll pay you twice the amount you're currently "earning" on the benefit to become a bin man. I'm guessing one of those requests will be turned down. What's the point of difference?

Originally Posted by Winston001

Odd as it might seem, work isn't about money (once you get above the basic wage). Work provides a person with a reason to get out of bed each day, a purpose in life. It also provides social contact with other people, feeling valued, learning to do new stuff, and most importantly a sense of self-worth.

Regrettably many employers do not understand these elements and wonder why they lose staff.

Not about money? You're right that work gets people out of bed, ye don't get paid otherwise

... but it certainly doesn't give purpose in life unless they're vocational about it... failing that, it's about the money, no more, no less. Also, if I was on the dole I could choose who I "played" with, where work forces me to work with people I may not like, which may in turn could cause health problems, stress etc... (I don't see Mr Doley stressed, do you?). heh, feeling valued by your employers, good one Winston. Why would I not feel just as valued on the dole? I can learn new stuff on the dole too, in fact the govt would probably sponsor me to learn about just about anything I wanted too... whereas EVERY company that I have worked for has moaned and bitched about training. Self-worth, I nearly pee'd, my Self-worth has absolutely nothing to do with working, and I doubt I'm in the minority... again, probably found in the vocational crowd.

Business all the way, why should they give a shit? especially where a doley is involved... after all it's their money!

**turtleman** · 2nd September 2011, 20:06

Originally Posted by mashman

Have you ever considered the possibility that people who don't know what they want to do when they grow up, choose not to do anything until they find something that they want to do?

So how do they "find what they want to do" whilst not doing anything ?
Smacks of bone idleness to me !
And while this particular group are choosing to do nothing until they know what they want to do, someone else is paying their way for them.
Fucking sponges.

If they choose to sit on their arse doing nothing because they don't know what they want to do when they grow up, then let their parents pay for them.

Or get back to fucking school.

**mashman** · 2nd September 2011, 20:13

Originally Posted by turtleman

So how do they "find what they want to do" whilst not doing anything ?

Who knows, perhaps it'll come to them on the lav one day.

Originally Posted by turtleman

Smacks of bone idleness to me !

And while this particular group are choosing to do nothing until they know what they want to do, someone else is paying their way for them.
Fucking sponges.

I don't mind paying.

**Road kill** · 2nd September 2011, 20:15

Originally Posted by frogfeaturesFZR

Odd as it might seem, work isn't about money (once you get above the basic wage). Work provides a person with a reason to get out of bed each day, a purpose in life. It also provides social contact with other people, feeling valued, learning to do new stuff, and most importantly a sense of self-worth. End quote.

I work at Work and Income, the point I try to make to the people I see is that work itself is a form of therapy, a cheaper type of counseling really. Sounds mad I know, but it's true.

I work to pay the bills only.
You think the day after I win Lotto I'm going back to work

,,no wonder you Winz fucks achieve nothing.

**turtleman** · 2nd September 2011, 20:27

Originally Posted by mashman

Who knows, perhaps it'll come to them on the lav one day.

I don't mind paying.

Oh I don't mind paying either, where it is required

- but I was talking specifically about the non grown-ups from your first post that you have conveniently snipped from the quote.

**mashman** · 2nd September 2011, 20:42

Originally Posted by turtleman

Oh I don't mind paying either, where it is required

- but I was talking specifically about the non grown-ups from your first post that you have conveniently snipped from the quote.

ha ha ha haaaaa... snipped because it opens a can of worms I'd rather not open. Parents already pay, as well as in ways that aren't financial (possibly aid in gettin the kid removed, rehoused etc...) and sending them back to school is a waste of a place, time, money and educator sanity, especially if they aren't gonna bother (an overseas student could pay for that place, heh).

**turtleman** · 2nd September 2011, 20:57

Originally Posted by mashman

ha ha ha haaaaa... snipped because it opens a can of worms I'd rather not open. Parents already pay, as well as in ways that aren't financial (possibly aid in gettin the kid removed, rehoused etc...) and sending them back to school is a waste of a place, time, money and educator sanity, especially if they aren't gonna bother (an overseas student could pay for that place, heh).

Heh - True dat ! in a lot of cases, but not all....
Not all kids are shitbags that require removal, rehousing etc... a lot are just idle and "can't be bothered"....

My kids were always told from the time they were about 12 years old that they were staying at school unless they provided for themselves - if they left they had to get a job, attend an educational institute or go out and fend for themselves. They've all done that, to a degree. It hasn't been an enforced rule (haven't had to), just the idea from a reasonably early age that there aint no free lunch, and they're responsible for their own destiny. Responsible for taking charge of their own outcome and aren't owed anything.

I used to tease my youngest (at age 8 or 9) that he was the smart one and had to stay at school and study to be a lawyer/doctor/etc so he could earn enough to support my lifestyle in my dotage

..... little bugger is still living at home with me (now 20) but at least is studying at tech

**mashman** · 2nd September 2011, 21:10

Originally Posted by turtleman

Heh - True dat ! in a lot of cases, but not all....
Not all kids are shitbags that require removal, rehousing etc... a lot are just idle and "can't be bothered"....

My kids were always told from the time they were about 12 years old that they were staying at school unless they provided for themselves - if they left they had to get a job, attend an educational institute or go out and fend for themselves. They've all done that, to a degree. It hasn't been an enforced rule (haven't had to), just the idea from a reasonably early age that there aint no free lunch, and they're responsible for their own destiny. Responsible for taking charge of their own outcome and aren't owed anything.

I used to tease my youngest (at age 8 or 9) that he was the smart one and had to stay at school and study to be a lawyer/doctor/etc so he could earn enough to support my lifestyle in my dotage

..... little bugger is still living at home with me (now 20) but at least is studying at tech

Aye, there is an element that makes a career out of it, but there always has been and always will be and it doesn't make them any less of a person... although the world and his dog would seem to disagree

.

My parents did the same for me, encouragement, explaining the way of the world etc... apparantly I told them to "fuck off" (and worse

) and carried on doing my own thing. I can tell you from experience (ashamed as I am) that it can go pear shaped in a heartbeat, irrespective of the parents values and the value system drilled into their kids.

ye reap what ye sew

(gawd I got my everything crossed that my 3 uck foff pronto... I hope they follow my 20yr olds example and go to Uni... but I ain't countin my chickens)