Benefits

[rainman]

Only problem is "they" are us. "They" won't go away no matter how "tough" Pavlova Bennett is or even how much WFF Phil Goff offers. The only way to get rid of "them" is to make them into "us". It means we need to find ways to get more people working like "us", including reintroducing things like the MOW. Or maybe we need to provide extra resources for the poorer schools, and even provide food, so their kids leave school equal to our kids. It mean some of us go from having far more than we need to just more than we need. We might have to engage with "them" so they can learn the skills and develop the attitudes that give "us" what we have.

That is beyond even your usual level of excellence. Well put.

Guys - very few New Zealanders rich or poor would say "tough luck" to children living in poverty. We live in a well-off generous society which provides a social safety net for people in straightened circumstances. There is money and there is help.

I'm convinced you're on Prozac. Or live in a parallel NZ universe to the one I inhabit.

[mashman]

Guys - very few New Zealanders rich or poor would say "tough luck" to children living in poverty. We live in a well-off generous society which provides a social safety net for people in straightened circumstances. There is money and there is help.

The problem is the adults, the parents who are supposed to care for their children. Some of them simply don't do it. I recently heard of a school where some 5yr old new entrants can't speak, because nobody at home speaks to them. I was involved with a situation some years ago where CYPS intervened to prevent children being in a home with a child molester. The entire family put up a brick wall, denied there was a risk from the guy, and refused to cooperate.

These dysfunctional families are not rare.

There is no point blaming politicians or "the rich" - thats shallow and off target. What we need is direct and massive state intervention in families to protect the children and educate the adults. Sadly no government will do that.

Sorry, but if there are children in poverty "tough luck" IS exactly what the majority are saying, or the minority are perpetuating on behalf of the majority, otherwise there would be no child poverty. I fail to see how that can be construed as anything other than that. Child poverty is nothing new and only seems to be getting worse. The social safety net is not enough if it does not grow in line with the cost of living, let alone losing access to "services" due to departmental cuts. The money and help then become less value and less value for a growing population that is increasingly struggling to "make it".

The problem isn't the adults, not wholly and not in the majority of cases either. As you have mentioned yourself, 50% of the population have access to 10% of the "wealth". I have a sneaking suspicion that that adds all sorts of problems to poor households, especially if both parents have to work to cover the childcare bills, spending less and less time with their children as they put in more and more hours to keep up with the cost of living. I agree that there will be a minority of parents that don't parent, but that has always been the case and those dysfunctional families appear across the wealth spectrum and seem to have more grave consequences given the amount of $$$ available to the family, stresse, pressure etc...

There is every reason to blame politicians. They make policy and apportion the $$$ available for the care of uncared for children and financially strapped families. They're failing and failing consistently. I care not about the rich unless, as Bb points out, they're dodging their social financial responsibilities. There's nothing shallow or off target about either of those statements in my eyes, just a pure unadulterated truth! What we need is a way to beat "the system", not move A to B, rename B to C and promote C as the next step in going forwards, when it's the complete opposite. Our representatives do not address the issues, they change their names and shift the $$$ around, always have and always will, which gives us more of the same until the dial on the twister board changes colour and the blame can be shifted. EPIC!

We're not trying hard enough by any stretch of the imagination, but that seems to be accepted because there are country's worse off than ourselves? Nothing like resting on ones laurels eh. I'm sorry, we are not a well-off generous society at all, rather a bunch of ignorants that happily turn the other cheek because it's someone elses problem.

[scumdog]

Don't disagree - the children are not the problem - it's often the parents who are ...unfortunately they produce disfunctional children who continue the cycle of same behaviour..with even more kids..
...

Completed the story for ya!

[Banditbandit]

Completed the story for ya!

Look I don't disagree with that .. SOME of them produce dysfunctional children because that's just what they are themselves .. Many of them produce dysfunctional children because of the circumstances they find themselves in ...

We have to deal with both senarios otherwise, yes, the cycle continues ...

How do we break the cycle? (Serious suggestions - forced sterilization is not a serious answer ... even tho' I just might be slightly in favour of that myself ...)

[BoristheBiter]

. Many of them produce dysfunctional children because of the circumstances they find themselves in ...

Bollocks, That is plain and simply a cop out.
There is no one to pass the blame onto expect the parents. Dysfunctional people make dysfunctional family's regardless of where on the poverty scale they sit.

My family came from poverty that most of these fuckers would never know. try going to shops with no food in them.
I knew no matter how much money my folks had, I knew they loved me and would do anything for me, something I feel is sorely lacking in a lot of today's family's.

[Banditbandit]

Bollocks, That is plain and simply a cop out.
There is no one to pass the blame onto expect the parents. Dysfunctional people make dysfunctional family's regardless of where on the poverty scale they sit.

My family came from poverty that most of these fuckers would never know. try going to shops with no food in them.
I knew no matter how much money my folks had, I knew they loved me and would do anything for me, something I feel is sorely lacking in a lot of today's family's.

Yeah .. Naaaa ... I remember my parents arguing about whether they could afford to buy a loaf of bread .. when half a loaf was a farthing ... so don't pull that poverty shit on me ....

Yes dysfunctional people can produce disfunctional children no matter where they sit on the poverty scale .. If you read all of what I posted and not just slectively edited I did make that point .. maybe a little subtley for badass bikers ...

My point is that child poverty does have disasterous consequences for many children ... and what are we, as a society, going to do about that ... It's your generalization that looks like a cop-out to me ... How do we stop dysfunctional parents from producing dysfunction children ??? How do we break that cycle ???

[oneofsix]

Yeah .. Naaaa ... I remember my parents arguing about whether they could afford to buy a loaf of bread .. when half a loaf was a farthing ... so don't pull that poverty shit on me ....

Yes dysfunctional people can produce disfunctional children no matter where they sit on the poverty scale .. If you read all of what I posted and not just slectively edited I did make that point .. maybe a little subtley for badass bikers ...

My point is that child poverty does have disasterous consequences for many children ... and what are we, as a society, going to do about that ... It's your generalization that looks like a cop-out to me ... How do we stop dysfunctional parents from producing dysfunction children ??? How do we break that cycle ???

stopping dysfunctional parents from producing dysfunction children isn't easy. Stopping poverty from producing dysfunction children from what would have been otherwise good citizens is what we as a society should be, and used to be, concerned about.

[BoristheBiter]

Yeah .. Naaaa ... I remember my parents arguing about whether they could afford to buy a loaf of bread .. when half a loaf was a farthing ... so don't pull that poverty shit on me ....

Yes dysfunctional people can produce disfunctional children no matter where they sit on the poverty scale .. If you read all of what I posted and not just slectively edited I did make that point .. maybe a little subtley for badass bikers ...

My point is that child poverty does have disasterous consequences for many children ... and what are we, as a society, going to do about that ... It's your generalization that looks like a cop-out to me ... How do we stop dysfunctional parents from producing dysfunction children ??? How do we break that cycle ???

Yeah... Naaaaa...UUMMM...

Shoot them?

Here is an novel idea, why not hold the parents to account??

[RDJ]

Look I don't disagree with that .. SOME of them produce dysfunctional children because that's just what they are themselves .. Many of them produce dysfunctional children because of the circumstances they find themselves in ... How do we break the cycle? (Serious suggestions)

When we reward a particular style of behaviour, we get more of it. We reward those particular styles of behaviour. With cash, taken from working people.

There are genuine cases of serious poverty, but they are largely outnumbered by cases where poverty consists of having to buy fast food because they don't have enough money to buy slow food, yet "the house" has two or more televisions, Xboxs, PlayStations, and a couple of cars. Over the same time period, the cultural, ethnic and grievance industries have combined with fiscally reckless social worker-/lawyer-staffed parliaments has eliminated one of the fundamental constraints on antisocial behaviour, shame. Too many men are no longer ashamed to not support their families.

And yes, in the so-called bad old days many men and women had to stay in a bad marriage because they couldn't afford to divorce. But now that they can afford to divorce, and it is no longer shameful to do so, "we" are doing it more. Are we happier now we have that option?

[Banditbandit]

Yeah... Naaaaa...UUMMM...

Shoot them?

Here is an novel idea, why not hold the parents to account??

Not a novel idea .. a great idea ... How do we hold the parents to account in ways that make things better for their children???? Holding parents to account by cutting benefits makes it worse for the children ...

When we reward a particular style of behaviour, we get more of it. We reward those particular styles of behaviour. With cash, taken from working people.

The payments are support for themselves and their families ... they are not rewards for behaviour ... Yesw, if you phrase it that way then the way to change behaviour is to stop the rewards ... makes it worse for the children ...

There are genuine cases of serious poverty, but they are largely outnumbered by cases where poverty consists of having to buy fast food because they don't have enough money to buy slow food, yet "the house" has two or more televisions, Xboxs, PlayStations, and a couple of cars.

Don't disagree - except I'm not sure about exactly how many we are talking about in each category ... how do we change that?

And there's a good chance that the cars, tvs, Xboxes, Playstations are paid for from the black economy - I know a few families with luxuries paid for like that ...

Over the same time period, the cultural, ethnic and grievance industries have combined with fiscally reckless social worker-/lawyer-staffed parliaments has eliminated one of the fundamental constraints on antisocial behaviour, shame. Too many men are no longer ashamed to not support their families.

Yes .. there might be answer following this line here ... How do we get people to feel shame for not working and earning and supporting their families ??? Shame comes from peer responses .. and most of their peers are in the same situationas them .. but shame and public approbation seems to be lowering the drink-driving problem ... maybe we can move that into the social field we are talking about ...

And yes, in the so-called bad old days many men and women had to stay in a bad marriage because they couldn't afford to divorce. But now that they can afford to divorce, and it is no longer shameful to do so, "we" are doing it more. Are we happier now we have that option?

No - Look I don't disagree at all ... but what's the answer???? All I've heard so far is punative responses to parents by cutting benefits. How does that help the children? How will that make a better society for the next generations? For our children and grandchildren - I do not want them growing up in a world where their are violent, antisocial classes which do not want to work and spend all day playing pokies, smoking weed, breeding and abusing/killing children ...

I know all the problems and issues as well as you do - I've lived with these people, I teach these people in my classrooms (that's part of a solution) I've smoked weed with them in the past ... I'm looking for serious solutions ... we all know and can identify the problems ... What's the fucking answer .. apart from slashing benefits !!!

[oneofsix]

Yeah... Naaaaa...UUMMM...

Shoot them?

Here is an novel idea, why not hold the parents to account??

Why should the parents be made responsible for your bad attitude infecting their kids?

[BoristheBiter]

Why should the parents be made responsible for your bad attitude infecting their kids?

My bad attitude has nothing to do with how people raise their kids.

[Oblivion]

Why should the parents be made responsible for your bad attitude infecting their kids?

I would be inclined to agree here. I know some families where the parents are shit hot. Bloody good people, offer you a cuppa when you come round, come round with a box of beer every so often for no reason at all. But their children are some of the most arrogant shits you'll ever find. Its like money is an object without limit, with the me,me,me,me attitude. Not afraid to get down on their knees to get the 300$ phone that they don't need, but want since everyone else has one.

Its not always the parents fault for the shitty attitude that's affecting the youth.

Telling of a child does shit. It never worked for me or my siblings. Only when we got a bloody good whallop did we stop, Do it once, and you'll never want it again. (Or maybe it took a few ) Too bad the Nanny state thinks otherwise.

[Banditbandit]

Telling off a child does shit. It never worked for me or my siblings. Only when we got a bloody good whallop did we stop, Do it once, and you'll never want it again. (Or maybe it took a few ) Too bad the Nanny state thinks otherwise.

Yeah? getting thumped on a rergular basis (for things I did and for things I didn't do) only gave me a very strong anti-authoritarian streak which I carry to this day ... 37 years later .... and sent me into the 1%er circles witha Fuck the World attitude ...

Look .... No-one's given me an answer yet - all dodging ... does that mean no one can come up with a good answer?

[BoristheBiter]

Yeah? getting thumped on a rergular basis (for things I did and for things I didn't do) only gave me a very strong anti-authoritarian streak which I carry to this day ... 37 years later .... and sent me into the 1%er circles witha Fuck the World attitude ...

Look .... No-one's given me an answer yet - all dodging ... does that mean no one can come up with a good answer?

Yeah getting the cane or strap at school only reinforced the point of they had lost the argument.

There is no great answer as great parents can still have fuckwit kids, but I still stand by the saying "you reap what you sow".

But how to fix it, IMHO it is to late. We will have to have a reverse in the morel stand point of "I can do what I like and no one can stop me" society that we have today.
FFS the top NZ made program is about lowlife scum and everyone thinks its great, everyone goes on about SOA being another great show. Soprano's, breaking bad, are other such examples of this as well as some video games. we as a society have now made it normal to be bad for so long now it has become the norm so how can you expect the kids to be any better.

And as for slashing benefits, not saying that, I'm saying make them work for it.