Benefits

[scissorhands]

The State or big brother is the parent to adults, start shootin'

Create round and square holes, triangular, whatever

Diversity in culture, rather than jamming pegs in the wrong holes

monocultures like wheat, diary, pine forests, social engineering.....create many problems that are unsustainable in the long term

Correct management of people will remedy welfare issues

Teach a man to fish.....

If smellyvision today quit dumbing down peeps... within 1 year a huge drop in benefits will occur, businesses would start up everywhere...

and their would be no one left to pump gas and dig holes and buy stupid shit

I think those running the show call it: collateral damage

[mashman]

Look .... No-one's given me an answer yet - all dodging ... does that mean no one can come up with a good answer?

Wasn't mine a good enough answer

[jonbuoy]

Sorry, but if there are children in poverty "tough luck" IS exactly what the majority are saying, or the minority are perpetuating on behalf of the majority, otherwise there would be no child poverty. I fail to see how that can be construed as anything other than that. Child poverty is nothing new and only seems to be getting worse. The social safety net is not enough if it does not grow in line with the cost of living, let alone losing access to "services" due to departmental cuts. The money and help then become less value and less value for a growing population that is increasingly struggling to "make it".

The problem isn't the adults, not wholly and not in the majority of cases either. As you have mentioned yourself, 50% of the population have access to 10% of the "wealth". I have a sneaking suspicion that that adds all sorts of problems to poor households, especially if both parents have to work to cover the childcare bills, spending less and less time with their children as they put in more and more hours to keep up with the cost of living. I agree that there will be a minority of parents that don't parent, but that has always been the case and those dysfunctional families appear across the wealth spectrum and seem to have more grave consequences given the amount of $$$ available to the family, stresse, pressure etc...

There is every reason to blame politicians. They make policy and apportion the $$$ available for the care of uncared for children and financially strapped families. They're failing and failing consistently. I care not about the rich unless, as Bb points out, they're dodging their social financial responsibilities. There's nothing shallow or off target about either of those statements in my eyes, just a pure unadulterated truth! What we need is a way to beat "the system", not move A to B, rename B to C and promote C as the next step in going forwards, when it's the complete opposite. Our representatives do not address the issues, they change their names and shift the $$$ around, always have and always will, which gives us more of the same until the dial on the twister board changes colour and the blame can be shifted. EPIC!

We're not trying hard enough by any stretch of the imagination, but that seems to be accepted because there are country's worse off than ourselves? Nothing like resting on ones laurels eh. I'm sorry, we are not a well-off generous society at all, rather a bunch of ignorants that happily turn the other cheek because it's someone elses problem.

Have you ever been to a real third world country? People will do anything to get into a western society and have the opportunity of a good education and welfare system like NZ has. If you can´t make it in NZ your not trying hard enough.

[mashman]

Have you ever been to a real third world country? People will do anything to get into a western society and have the opportunity of a good education and welfare system like NZ has. If you can´t make it in NZ your not trying hard enough.

Not a real third world country, no, but I've seen enough of people drinking water out of gutters, living in the cow shed (with the cattle) etc... post war to know I've seen enough and that indeed it can be worse than that. I have more than enough empathy and know exactly how lucky I am, I don't kid myself that on the face of it we're living in a garden of eden, but I know it could be much much better. And that's all the more of a reason that child poverty and homelessness, amongst other things, shouldn't exist in NZ, yet for some very well known reason that is the case. I'm not saying that certain people shirk their responsibilities, but that's at both ends of the scale and inbetween.

[Winston001]

Diversity in culture, rather than jamming pegs in the wrong holes

Correct management of people will remedy welfare issues

Teach a man to fish.....

Nah. We've had the cultural sensitivity thing and its rubbish. Pacific Island dads thump their kids - so we should let them? Some Moslems circumcise their daughters - thats their way, so its ok?

Children deserve care and protection, love and nurturing. Its basic and its simple. Other creatures do it but some humans fail at an entirely basic level. We cannot continue to just pretend and hope it will all get better.

If smellyvision today quit dumbing down peeps... within 1 year a huge drop in benefits will occur, businesses would start up everywhere...

and their would be no one left to pump gas and dig holes and buy stupid shit

I think those running the show call it: collateral damage

Not picking on you, just sayin eh.. An educated population would still have people willing and able to dig holes but mostly they'd use machines. We don't send children down coal mines or up chimneys anymore, yet coal still gets mined and chimneys cleaned.

[Winston001]

Look .... No-one's given me an answer yet - all dodging ... does that mean no one can come up with a good answer?

Seriously? I actually believe we need ten thousand more social workers, properly educated and trained. Integration of data between police, doctors, schools, hospitals, and the Ministry of Justice (Courts, Probation, Prisons).

Wide powers to enter homes and remove children and/or parents. Powers to video pubs and pokie machines. Establishment of secure temporary homes for children assessed at risk.

The crucial most difficult element is finding enough intelligent, dedicated, and ethical social workers and foster parents to carry out the work.

[jonbuoy]

Seriously? I actually believe we need ten thousand more social workers, properly educated and trained. Integration of data between police, doctors, schools, hospitals, and the Ministry of Justice (Courts, Probation, Prisons).

Wide powers to enter homes and remove children and/or parents. Powers to video pubs and pokie machines. Establishment of secure temporary homes for children assessed at risk.

The crucial most difficult element is finding enough intelligent, dedicated, and ethical social workers and foster parents to carry out the work.

I think they need to make people:

1) Realise how well off they are by world standards

2) Quit whining and making excuses

3) Make the most of the excellent education, health and benefits they do get from birth.

Its only now I realise myself how spoilt I was to have the option of going to school for free everyday.

[mashman]

I think they need to make people:

1) Realise how well off they are by world standards

2) Quit whining and making excuses

3) Make the most of the excellent education, health and benefits they do get from birth.

Its only now I realise myself how spoilt I was to have the option of going to school for free everyday.

Make people?

1) To what end? To making people stop discussing the world's inequities? i.e. roll over and play dead?

2) Aye, that's a one way street if ever I saw one.

3) I agree.

I to have taken an awful lot for granted... I hope I can pay it back someday.

[FJRider]

I think they need to make people:

1) Realise how well off they are by world standards

2) Quit whining and making excuses

3) Make the most of the excellent education, health and benefits they do get from birth.

Its only now I realise myself how spoilt I was to have the option of going to school for free everyday.

1: Only if compared to third world standards ... but current welfare policy allows for those on a benefit, to make the right choices with the funding they get. Sadly too few do ...

2: It CAN'T be their fault ... regardless of the problem ...

3: Hindsight is always a wonderful thing ...

It never ceases to amaze me how many say (people in their position) ... it can't be done. When SOME people (in their position) ... HAVE ...

Making the MOST of options given is the key ... (refer to 3: )

[jonbuoy]

Benefits could easily drag what we think of as first nations down into third world status. Even in Spain you have to pay for all school text books (they aren't cheap either), you can only claim unemployment for two years, after that your on your own.

[NinjaNanna]

Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong. Human society is working hell bent to eliminate all manual work, roboticising and automating as many processes as we possibly can in the name of efficiency.

In effect we are really just bitching that the poor people get the benefits of not working first (if you can call them benefits). Currently this issue is being ignored but eventually it will affect the vast majority.

[Winston001]

Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong. Human society is working hell bent to eliminate all manual work, roboticising and automating as many processes as we possibly can in the name of efficiency.

In effect we are really just bitching that the poor people get the benefits of not working first (if you can call them benefits). Currently this issue is being ignored but eventually it will affect the vast majority.

Thats a big big topic with no agreement. Here's a quick precis:

• In pre-history humans did not spend all day every day working for food, clothing, and shelter. Humans were sparse and food was plentiful. As was death - 30 years was old age.
• Agriculture dramatically changed things with villages developing and populations to burgeon

• Civilisation slowly developed and the amount of time spent working expanded because the opportunities were greater
• Even so, human populations didn't work 24/7. Food was stored for the winter months. People weren't wealthy but the powerful lords and kings ensured there was enough food and safety so their vassals and citizens could survive. A leader without people was a nobody.
• Right through the Middle Ages until the 18th century, people worked busily in the spring, summer, and autumn, and rested in the winter.
• Then the Industrial Revolution arrived. Suddenly full employment - even of young children, became normal.

And that's the legacy we have today. The assumption that everyone should have a job is very new...and probably wrong. Its a new and novel idea not borne out by history.

So - where to now? You'd expect 20 hour weeks and full employment but statistics suggest we work longer hours than our parents.

Som'its wrong...

[jonbuoy]

Thats a big big topic with no agreement. Here's a quick precis:

• In pre-history humans did not spend all day every day working for food, clothing, and shelter. Humans were sparse and food was plentiful. As was death - 30 years was old age.
• Agriculture dramatically changed things with villages developing and populations to burgeon

• Civilisation slowly developed and the amount of time spent working expanded because the opportunities were greater
• Even so, human populations didn't work 24/7. Food was stored for the winter months. People weren't wealthy but the powerful lords and kings ensured there was enough food and safety so their vassals and citizens could survive. A leader without people was a nobody.
• Right through the Middle Ages until the 18th century, people worked busily in the spring, summer, and autumn, and rested in the winter.
• Then the Industrial Revolution arrived. Suddenly full employment - even of young children, became normal.

And that's the legacy we have today. The assumption that everyone should have a job is very new...and probably wrong. Its a new and novel idea not borne out by history.

So - where to now? You'd expect 20 hour weeks and full employment but statistics suggest we work longer hours than our parents.

Som'its wrong...

Only wrong if you want to go back to being a hunter gatherer, patching yourself up as best you can after injuries/illness. Are you sure about some of those quotes, think someone has their rose tinted glasses on when it comes to pre historic and medieval history, did they forget about the great famines and plagues, unjust laws and taxes?? Most people on this forum have a bike, probably a car, a computer housing food internet access and enough spare time to be rambling online. We´ve never had it so good.

[Ocean1]

Yes, the price of every modern facility we have is the extra income needed to maintain it. If we indulge in too many expensive, short-sighted policies for too long and we could easilly be back to the stone age.

And while we're on the olden days... Social support was either non-existant or, at best reliant on the Chief's / Lord's largess. I'd hazard a guess there wouldn't have been too many dole bludgers.

[oneofsix]

Yes, the price of every modern facility we have is the extra income needed to maintain it. If we indulge in too many expensive, short-sighted policies for too long and we could easilly be back to the stone age.

And while we're on the olden days... Social support was either non-existant or, at best reliant on the Chief's / Lord's largess. I'd hazard a guess there wouldn't have been too many dole bludgers.

And we got out of the olden days be building social systems like benefits for the unfortunate. Why do you want to take us back to the bad old days?