Democracy, freedom and the right to vote!

[BoristheBiter]

No single law has entirely emptied the tool box. But for some "good causes" you have lost :

(1) The presumption of innocence. There are now several laws that assume you are guilty until you prove, at your cost that you are not.
(2) The right to be tried by a jury. The threshold has been raised, and majority verdicts are on the agenda.
(3) The right to remain silent. Long gone, in fact if you don't answer questions, and provide the evidence on request you are now in many cases fu*ked.
(4) Freedom from search and seizure. Now in many circumstances gone. You may be held, and searched now under numerous laws, without warrant or even cause.
(5) The right not to be punished before convicted of a crime. We now have many laws on the books where the punishment is applied before the court hearing. If you are innocent, well, if you have enough money you may be able to get reparation.
(6) The right to associate with people of your choice. Long gone. The government can decide that.
(7) You are now censored. You now need permission under many circumstances to state facts, or to view material, which while the behavior is legal, the state restricts your access to. And your internet is blocked - the state decides what gives you a 404 error.

Your passport photo, the cameras at the border, your drivers licence photo, those new cameras at the supermarket, all create a signature, which follows you as clearly as a bar code on your face.

Don't believe me ? Send the agencies in question an OIA request. I have. They are all doing it, and working out how to share that barcode.

No national ID card yet ? well, NZ has done better than the rest of the world. They all want you to have a card you carry. Our lot saw we wouldn't like that. So they have done a "virtual" (and voluntary as long as you don't want to get a benefit, pay tax or drive) ID card.

In the next few years you will have to go to the Post Office and get your IGOVT photo ID card. The clever bit is you don't need to carry it, or even really know it even exists. (Actually, you can go in March next year if you want to, thats kick off day)

As you walk around, you face provides your ID number. No card, just a digital one at Govt ID HQ.

There will of course be "good reasons" why all these losses of our democracy, freedom and privacy have occurred.

They will all be justifiable, and of course you will be protected. No problem eh.

Sorry but that's just wank.
All of those are just excuses of a criminal or a tinfoil hat wearer.

If you are so hell bent on not being tracked go live in the bush.
As for you right to do things I have never been stopped from looking at anything, whether on the internet or imported into NZ, so the stuff you must want to look at must be some deviant shit.

Still you haven't come up with anything that hasn't been around for the last 50 years, only the ease at with it is collected has changed.
And in fact most of the things you have quotes are now so far in the criminal's favor that your points become irrelevant.

But as you say no tool has been removed so no problem.

[Oakie]

It is MY opinion ... (and maybe ONLY my opinion) that most of those that actually voted ... DID research their vote. OR at least gave it some thought. Not just voted the way they always had.

Never thought about it but you may be right. MMP certainly makes it worthwhile looking at what the minor parties have on offer.

[Ocean1]

Sorry but that's just wank.
All of those are just excuses of a criminal or a tinfoil hat wearer.

If you are so hell bent on not being tracked go live in the bush.
As for you right to do things I have never been stopped from looking at anything, whether on the internet or imported into NZ, so the stuff you must want to look at must be some deviant shit.

Still you haven't come up with anything that hasn't been around for the last 50 years, only the ease at with it is collected has changed.
And in fact most of the things you have quotes are now so far in the criminal's favor that your points become irrelevant.

But as you say no tool has been removed so no problem.

Hes said no tool has ENTIRELY been removed. He then listed several specific rights you've lost over the last decade.

If you don't have a problem with that then you've not read much history.

[davereid]

Sorry but that's just wank. All of those are just excuses of a criminal or a tinfoil hat wearer. If you are so hell bent on not being tracked go live in the bush. As for you right to do things I have never been stopped from looking at anything, whether on the internet or imported into NZ, so the stuff you must want to look at must be some deviant shit.

The thing about democracy, freedom, and the right to vote, is that they are fragile rights.

They may be taken from you in an instant by an invader or coup, or just lost gradually as governments observe that they act unchallenged.

You asked me for an example of what had changed. I gave you a comprehensive list. Instead of saying why I was mistaken you just attacked me personally.

And as you have commented, only criminals need fear the complete control of government.

The problem is, that (relatively modern) governments have made it criminal to oppose slavery, to be in (or not be in) a union, to support a particular political view, to be female, homosexual, Christian, not Christian, dance if you are Irish, or to have sex with your wife unless the lord has already fucked her.

[scumdog]

Goody, more laws to cater to the lowest common denominator.

The laws re H.P. USE to be there - they took them away and now the 'lowest common denomitor' types are 'reaping the benefit'.
NOT.

Are you a money lender or something??

[mashman]

If any of this is true, and I urge you to read it, our govt is the least of our concerns.

"The Senate is going to vote on whether Congress will give this president—and every future president — the power to order the military to pick up and imprison without charge or trial civilians anywhere in the world"

Democracy, freedom and the right to vo........ EOL

[scumdog]

If any of this is true, and I urge you to read it, our govt is the least of our concerns.

"The Senate is going to vote on whether Congress will give this president—and every future president — the power to order the military to pick up and imprison without charge or trial civilians anywhere in the world"

Democracy, freedom and the right to vo........ EOL

Mwahahahaahah!!!.......

[BoristheBiter]

You asked me for an example of what had changed. I gave you a comprehensive list. Instead of saying why I was mistaken you just attacked me personally.

Just re-read my post and it does sound that way, sorry no intent to personal attack you I just think you are so far wrong it's laughable.

All those things you mentioned we still have, yes they have been tweaked but they are still there,
(1) The presumption of innocence. There are now several laws that assume you are guilty until you prove, at your cost that you are not.
You still have that right, nothing has changed there, unless you mean speeding and that is a whole different law.
(2) The right to be tried by a jury. The threshold has been raised, and majority verdicts are on the agenda.
You still have this right, they changed the threshold so anyone with a lesser charge wouldn't hold up court time, i.e shopliffting.
(3) The right to remain silent. Long gone, in fact if you don't answer questions, and provide the evidence on request you are now in many cases fu*ked.
Wrong again, it's "you have the right to refrain from making a statement" and its still there, failing to provide details is, I guess what you're talking about, and to say you're fucked is stretching it a bit.
(4) Freedom from search and seizure. Now in many circumstances gone. You may be held, and searched now under numerous laws, without warrant or even cause.
Again what laws are you quoting? NZ BOR #109 "Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure, whether of the person, property, or correspondence or otherwise"
(5) The right not to be punished before convicted of a crime. We now have many laws on the books where the punishment is applied before the court hearing. If you are innocent, well, if you have enough money you may be able to get reparation.
Like what? Do you want rapists and murderers walking around? I know i don't.
(6) The right to associate with people of your choice. Long gone. The government can decide that.
Again crap unless you are on bail or parole and these are the conditions.
(7) You are now censored. You now need permission under many circumstances to state facts, or to view material, which while the behavior is legal, the state restricts your access to. And your internet is blocked - the state decides what gives you a 404 error.
because we all want our kids subjected to some deviant don't we.

The problem is, that (relatively modern) governments have made it criminal to oppose slavery, to be in (or not be in) a union, to support a particular political view, to be female, homosexual, Christian, not Christian, dance if you are Irish, or to have sex with your wife unless the lord has already fucked her.

Oh so you are talking about medieval times in Europe, sorry i thought we were talking about now in NZ. If you want to go down those lines (relatively modern) governments have started using "the bill of rights" so lets remove that as it stops me (a land owner) from taxing my serfs, and giving them a good thrashing if there is none.

[SPman]

If you want to go down those lines (relatively modern) governments have started using "the bill of rights"

- where and when it suits them. Several current NZ ministers have come out and said, bills they are proposing, don't comply with the BOR and are blatantly unrepentant about it. (Paula Bennet, for one.)

Guilt on accusation - the new Copyright act. Crime Proceeds recovery Act - a lower standard of evidence and a reverse onus of proof – “reasonable grounds to believe”, without conviction, violates the minimum standards of criminal procedure affirmed in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act .

It seems, currently, that "western" governments around the world, treat the accepted notion of "democracy", as an increasingly inconvenient annoyance, to be paid lip service to, only when they want to give the public the illusion, that they are "serving the people", when, in truth, they basically couldn't give a rat's arse about the public, except at the increasing sham, that elections are becoming. The major parties seem to be sliding into unison - Labour parties in the UK and Aus, for example, are more right wing than a lot of the old Tory parties. In the USA, Dem or Rep - what's the difference? Parties of the rich, for the rich, with increasing disdain, if not downright hostility to the public who ostensibly keep them in power. Part of the reason for voter fall off, is that there is less and less, a clear choice between those who would deign to be in control.

[BoristheBiter]

- where and when it suits them. Several current NZ ministers have come out and said, bills they are proposing, don't comply with the BOR and are blatantly unrepentant about it. (Paula Bennet, for one.)

Guilt on accusation - the new Copyright act. Crime Proceeds recovery Act - a lower standard of evidence and a reverse onus of proof – “reasonable grounds to believe”, without conviction, violates the minimum standards of criminal procedure affirmed in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act .

It seems, currently, that "western" governments around the world, treat the accepted notion of "democracy", as an increasingly inconvenient annoyance, to be paid lip service to, only when they want to give the public the illusion, that they are "serving the people", when, in truth, they basically couldn't give a rat's arse about the public, except at the increasing sham, that elections are becoming. The major parties seem to be sliding into unison - Labour parties in the UK and Aus, for example, are more right wing than a lot of the old Tory parties. In the USA, Dem or Rep - what's the difference? Parties of the rich, for the rich, with increasing disdain, if not downright hostility to the public who ostensibly keep them in power. Part of the reason for voter fall off, is that there is less and less, a clear choice between those who would deign to be in control.

You can keep regurgitation the same old anti-government rubbish. it is now getting old and i have yet to see any change.
The laws you quote have no bearing unless you are into criminal activities.

And if I was a politician having to put up with this constant drivel on a daily biases I would only pay you lip service as well.
What you fail to realize is that the world changes, people change and economy's change and the governments of the day have to do what they think is best for their respective country and if you don't like them you get a chance every election to change the government.
You might not agree with who gets voted in, and by the sounds of no one would make you happy, but that's democracy for you.

[davereid]

Here is a nice example of modern New Zealand law.

I have reproduced it faithfully except for the designation of the "officer" which I have abbreviated.

Subpart 2—Powers relevant
Production of information
(1)A SS officer or a SS authorised person may require any person—
(a)to produce information or documents; or
(b)to answer relevant questions; or
(c)to provide personal information about that individual, including identifying information such as the person’s name, place of residence, place of business, date of birth, and gender.

Power of entry without warrant for inspection
(1)At any reasonable time a SS officer or a SS authorised person may enter and inspect a place without a warrant for the purpose of determining whether or not a person is complying with this Act, regulations made under it, or standards issued under it.
(1)A SS officer or a SS authorised person may stop a vehicle to exercise the power conferred by section 104.

Personal search power
Power to detain and search
(1)In the circumstances described in subsection (2), a SS OFFICER may—
(a)detain a person for as long as is reasonably necessary to carry out a search of that person; and
(b)search the person; and
(c)take possession of any information to which subsection (2) applies.

Duty of persons with knowledge of computer system or other data storage devices to assist access

(1)A person exercising a search power in any place or vehicle or in respect of any other thing may require a specified person to provide access information and other information or assistance that is reasonable and necessary to allow the person exercising the search power to access data held in—
(a)a computer system that is located (in whole or in part) in the place or the vehicle or other thing being searched:
(b)any other data storage device that is located (in whole or in part) at the place or in the vehicle or other thing being searched.

Special powers where application for search warrant pending
(1)If an application for a search warrant is about to be made or has been made and has not yet been granted or refused by an issuing officer, a SS officer present at the place or vehicle that is or is to be the subject of the application may, if authorised by subsection (2),—(a) enter and secure the place, vehicle, or other thing in respect of which authorisation to enter and search is being sought, and secure any items found at that place or in that vehicle or other thing, at any time...

[scumdog]

Here is a nice example of modern New Zealand law.

I have reproduced it faithfully except for the designation of the "officer" which I have abbreviated.

Subpart 2—Powers relevant
Production of information
(1)A SS officer or a SS authorised person may require any person—
(a)to produce information or documents; or
(b)to answer relevant questions; or
(c)to provide personal information about that individual, including identifying information such as the person’s name, place of residence, place of business, date of birth, and gender.

Power of entry without warrant for inspection
(1)At any reasonable time a SS officer or a SS authorised person may enter and inspect a place without a warrant for the purpose of determining whether or not a person is complying with this Act, regulations made under it, or standards issued under it.
(1)A SS officer or a SS authorised person may stop a vehicle to exercise the power conferred by section 104.

Personal search power
Power to detain and search
(1)In the circumstances described in subsection (2), a SS OFFICER may—
(a)detain a person for as long as is reasonably necessary to carry out a search of that person; and
(b)search the person; and
(c)take possession of any information to which subsection (2) applies.

..

And???

[davereid]

Well scumdog, Boristheplonker had agreed with me that we had lost the presumption of innocence.

He had agreed that for many we have lost the right to be tried by a jury.

However he had maintained that we have the right to remain silent. I offered this law as a demonstration that he was wrong.

He had also maintained that we have the right not to be subject to unreasonable search and seizure.
I offered this law as a demonstration that he was wrong.

I think it matters. You and Boris don't. I wonder what your Grandkids will think.

[Ocean1]

And???

It's odious. It's also at odds with what most democratic nations hold as their bill of rights.

I, for one decline to allow the transgression. I'm aware of at least four telecom workers that did too, one after the other...

Y'see, they can SAY you don't have certain rights under certain circumstances, and they can charge you under the act for not agreeing with that, but they can't actually make you comply.

Fuckem.

[scumdog]

I think it matters. You and Boris don't. I wonder what your Grandkids will think.

I wonder what my Grand-dad thinks about right now.

Fought in WW1 for what?

And

Chicken or egg moment-

Does our deteriorating behaviour cause the Gov't to think there is a need to bring in these laws you disagreee with?

Or does the Gov't making these 'draconian' laws cause us all to lower our standards in subconscious retaliation???