Speeding tickets. Why the angst?

[Jantar]

Among my other interests is aviation, and I am now the proud owner of a vintage glider. There are many similarities between flying and motorcycling (eg you bank to turn, and the more bank you have on the more throttle is required), but there are some areas where motorcycling (and road users in general) can learn from aviation.

When flying I have to have a 2 yearly flight test called a Bienniel Flight Review. Don't pass that 2 yearly test and you can't fly without an instructor's permission. Maybe a good thing to try with our driver's licences.

I obey the speed limits placed on glider without exception:
Fly slower than the stalling speed and the glider will stall, no need for anyone to police it it WILL happen. All pilots are taught how to recognise a stall and to recover (except for some airbus pilots apparently). Ride your bike too slow and you may fall off.
Fly faster than VNE (speed limit) and there is a risk the wings will fall off due to flutter. No need for anyone to police it it WILL happen. I pesonally know a pilot who had this happen, and fortuantely his parachute worked. A german pilot flying from Omarama a few years ago wasn't so lucky. Exceed the speed limit on your bike and you may be unlucky enough to get a ticket.

In aviation we are taught to recognise when we are approaching dangerous speeds in either direction, so why can't motorcyclist learn the same thing? Well they can learn, TPTB just don't want them to.

[chasio]

Load on the road makes sense therefore the lighter the bike the faster its allowed to go

No I think it is to do with the trailer and jack knife risk.

chasio braking ability relates to following distance and visible clear road. Light weight, manoeuvrability should allow quicker speeds Also gets us out of the way of cagers trying to crush us.

I like the theory and communtering means I certainly use it .

Once or twice I have seen my 'visible clear road' become a very short distance indeed when I had failed to predict a third-party manouevre in heavy traffic. It has made me a touch more cautious, I would say.

Oh and on another tack: ref BdM: there is a speed camera on the harbour bridge? I am amazed that a friend of mine (eek!) has never had a ticket, if that is the case. He shouldn't speed if he doesn't want one, of course...

[Scuba_Steve]

In aviation we are taught to recognise when we are approaching dangerous speeds in either direction, so why can't motorcyclist learn the same thing? Well they can learn, TPTB just don't want them to.

I think that right there is on the money, all these arguments about "catering" for the lowest common denominator on the road are bullshit, TPTB are creating the lowest common denominator with these laws & road layouts.

Make the roads "hard" suddenly people learn to drive. Tell people what to do & when to do it, you get mindless morons

[SPman]

Exceed the speed limit on your bike and you may be unlucky enough to get a ticket.

That's drawing a long bow to equate a fundamental design limit, dictated by physical stresses and material design and properties, with a politically proclaimed, non scientific limit, arbitrarily applied and enforced!

http://www.motorists.org/press/monta...safety-paradox

[Edbear]

I think that right there is on the money, all these arguments about "catering" for the lowest common denominator on the road are bullshit, TPTB are creating the lowest common denominator with these laws & road layouts.

Make the roads "hard" suddenly people learn to drive. Tell people what to do & when to do it, you get mindless morons

Sorry mate but that's crap if you'll pardon the expression. The simple fact is that most drivers are barely adequate at the best of times and too many are incompetent, or driving with their minds anywhere else but on what they are doing.

TPTB know this all too well and have done a lot to change the licensing requirements in order to improve the standard of new drivers/riders. There has been much publicity on the need to educate our young ones better and there are ads on TV encouraging parents to keep an eye on their kids as they get through their licenceing stages.

The issue is that it has been too easy for people to get licences from overseas and adults do not have to resit their examinations to get an NZ licence and pass competencey tests in order to drive here. In some fields, for example plumbing, childcare, early childhood education, etc. one must study sit and pass NZ exams in order to enter that field regardless of any overseas qualifications.

The same should be true of driving in this country, but the logistics and legislation are considerable. As should be retesting every ten years. The problem is cost and infrastructure and if you can solve those issues the Govt. would be happy to hear you out. Put some real thought into it instead of just moaning and complaining about it with no real understanding of the nuts and bolts. I challenged earlier to come up with legislation that would allow you to ride as you consider fit, but to no avail it seems...

Too many are fully prepared to complain and accuse, but not at all prepared to do anything positive about the issues. Wonder why?

[Jantar]

That's drawing a long bow to equate a fundamental design limit, dictated by physical stresses and material design and properties, with a politically proclaimed, non scientific limit, arbitrarily applied and enforced!

http://www.motorists.org/press/monta...safety-paradox

Yes, Isn't it? But that is exactly what politicians do when they set those speed limits. They assume that exceeding that "arbitrarily applied and enforced' speed limit will cause death and destruction, even when there is no scientific or engineering proof for it.

[Scuba_Steve]

Sorry mate but that's crap if you'll pardon the expression. The simple fact is that most drivers are barely adequate at the best of times and too many are incompetent, or driving with their minds anywhere else but on what they are doing.

TPTB know this all too well and have done a lot to change the licensing requirements in order to improve the standard of new drivers/riders. There has been much publicity on the need to educate our young ones better and there are ads on TV encouraging parents to keep an eye on their kids as they get through their licenceing stages.

The issue is that it has been too easy for people to get licences from overseas and adults do not have to resit their examinations to get an NZ licence and pass competencey tests in order to drive here. In some fields, for example plumbing, childcare, early childhood education, etc. one must study sit and pass NZ exams in order to enter that field regardless of any overseas qualifications.

The same should be true of driving in this country, but the logistics and legislation are considerable. As should be retesting every ten years. The problem is cost and infrastructure and if you can solve those issues the Govt. would be happy to hear you out. Put some real thought into it instead of just moaning and complaining about it with no real understanding of the nuts and bolts. I challenged earlier to come up with legislation that would allow you to ride as you consider fit, but to no avail it seems...

Too many are fully prepared to complain and accuse, but not at all prepared to do anything positive about the issues. Wonder why?

Yes licensing in this country is a joke from vehicles to firearms the whole system is a joke (maybee an exception in aviation I am unfamiliar with that but people seem to think it's decent) you gots monies you gets licence.
But we are creating moron drivers too
slower speed = less chance of crash/death? Bullshit!!! means more time for txt or "look at the pretty scenery"
pretty little lights = safer, faster, better intersections? Bullshit!!! means slower, red light running, & "fuck what do I do the pretty little lights aint telling me" confusion
Lowest common dominator will go as low as you let it you keep catering for them as we do they just get lower
We are creating morons simple as that, it's human nature why waste your time learning something when you don't have to??? You should know this better than anyone Ed just look at those who refuse to learn about religion & why? cause they don't have to, they're happy to let someone else tell them what to do, they have little to no interest in learning for themselves.
So make the roads such that people have to think don't give them the option they'll either learn to drive or let someone else drive for them the problem is, in NZ driving is all but a right & thats probably because the Govt & their families can't drive

As for the whole system from licensing to the operation of the road I've got a good fucking system & while (like always) there would be a setup cost to it, the ongoing would be much cheaper than current & way more convenient & efficient, producing better, fairer results both in roading & licensing

[Edbear]

Yes, Isn't it? But that is exactly what politicians do when they set those speed limits. They assume that exceeding that "arbitrarily applied and enforced' speed limit will cause death and destruction, even when there is no scientific or engineering proof for it.

Sorry but no. They set the speed limits in consultation with several parties including Councils and Police and with regard to the
"average" driver's abilities. Many of the pollies themselves would prefer higher limits as would many Police persons. The fact is that they have to set a figure, and then naturally they have to enforce it or it is meaningless.

Of course there are many areas and times where the speed limit can be safely exceeded by many drivers/riders, but that is not at all practical to adjust the law to.

The fact is we live in a society of many people from all backgrounds and abilities, over 4m in this country, and all have to be catered for in a fair and equitable fashion. For every person that is capable of safely exceeding the limit, there are several who are not, so unless you can bring all up to the same standard of driving that you consider yourself at, you must accept that for the general good, the limit is set and you must obey it or suffer the consequences.

The only fair way is for you to remove yourself from this society and live where you can make your own laws to suit yourself. Otherwise, if you exceed the limit and get pinged for it, smile and accept it is only your fault.

[Jantar]

Sorry but no. They set the speed limits in consultation with several parties including Councils and Police and with regard to the "average" driver's abilities. . .....

If the limits were set with regard to the average driver's abilities then it would be so bad. Unfortunately they are often set to the "well below average driver's abilities", then there are many roads with a speed limit of 100 kmh that even an expert driver would have trouble maintaining. Consider the South Kaikoura coastline; it is set at 80 kmh almost the entire length, and the sole reason for that limit is that a couple of trucks left the road, one of them causing some major pollution. So now ALL vehicles are limited to 80 instead of 100.

[FJRider]

Make the roads "hard" suddenly people learn to drive. Tell people what to do & when to do it, you get mindless morons

The "hard" roads people find ... and fall off now ... get the blame of the Goverment/councils/contractors .... anybody but themselves ...

Why is there an assumption that ALL roads with a posted speed limit of 100 km's/hr CAN and SHOULD be able to be negotiated ... AT 100 km's/hr (OR MORE)... Part of the "learning" process is finding out you CAN'T ... well not always ...

Even roads you know ... you only know as well as the last time you travelled it ...

[Edbear]

Yes licensing in this country is a joke from vehicles to firearms the whole system is a joke (maybee an exception in aviation I am unfamiliar with that but people seem to think it's decent) you gots monies you gets licence.
But we are creating moron drivers too
slower speed = less chance of crash/death? Bullshit!!! means more time for txt or "look at the pretty scenery"
pretty little lights = safer, faster, better intersections? Bullshit!!! means slower, red light running, & "fuck what do I do the pretty little lights aint telling me" confusion
Lowest common dominator will go as low as you let it you keep catering for them as we do they just get lower
We are creating morons simple as that, it's human nature why waste your time learning something when you don't have to??? You should know this better than anyone Ed just look at those who refuse to learn about religion & why? cause they don't have to, they're happy to let someone else tell them what to do, they have little to no interest in learning for themselves.
So make the roads such that people have to think don't give them the option they'll either learn to drive or let someone else drive for them the problem is, in NZ driving is all but a right & thats probably because the Govt & their families can't drive

As for the whole system from licensing to the operation of the road I've got a good fucking system & while (like always) there would be a setup cost to it, the ongoing would be much cheaper than current & way more convenient & efficient, producing better, fairer results both in roading & licensing

See above. The fact is that it does matter what the road is like. Why are there far more accidents on secondary roads that require a higher standard of driving capability and less on easy motorway systems? Check the stats on where the accidents are happening and the numbers per area. Check the stats on accident numbers after road realignments and improvements.

Some people could crash a car anywhere in any conditions they are that incompetent. I do maintain and I think we agree that there needs to be far stricter conditions for getting an NZ licence for overseas visitors and immigrants.

There is also a difference between competent drivers and safe drivers. Not all "good" drivers are safe, and not all mediocre drivers are unsafe. My wife is not what I'd call a "good" driver, but she has never had an accident and I have no qualms about sitting in the passenger seat if she is behind the wheel although I rarely do as her driving tends to frustrate me... She's not bad, just not as consistent as I pride myself on being.

Witness, too, the number of bikers killing and maiming themselves while proclaiming and firmly believing they are good and competent...

Most accidents are due to inattention, not incompetency, a momentary lack of judgement, or a slit second of not seeing something.

[Edbear]

If the limits were set with regard to the average driver's abilities then it would be so bad. Unfortunately they are often set to the "well below average driver's abilities", then there are many roads with a speed limit of 100 kmh that even an expert driver would have trouble maintaining. Consider the South Kaikoura coastline; it is set at 80 kmh almost the entire length, and the sole reason for that limit is that a couple of trucks left the road, one of them causing some major pollution. So now ALL vehicles are limited to 80 instead of 100.

The short answer, is we need to stop people having needless accidents and killing themselves unneccesarily. Trouble is that the people doing so are across all sectors of society. See my post above.

[FJRider]

... then there are many roads with a speed limit of 100 kmh that even an expert driver would have trouble maintaining. Consider the South Kaikoura coastline; it is set at 80 kmh almost the entire length, and the sole reason for that limit is that a couple of trucks left the road, one of them causing some major pollution. So now ALL vehicles are limited to 80 instead of 100.

Unless people get their act together ... I can see ALL "Black-spot" areas getting a speed limit reduction applied ...

[Ocean1]

Yes, Isn't it? But that is exactly what politicians do when they set those speed limits. They assume that exceeding that "arbitrarily applied and enforced' speed limit will cause death and destruction, even when there is no scientific or engineering proof for it.

Dead right. Everyone knows the natural limit on most Litre sports bikes is up around 260k, and even then you're not in serious trouble unless you lift the front wheel too much.

[Ocean1]

Sorry mate but that's crap if you'll pardon the expression. The simple fact is that most drivers are barely adequate at the best of times and too many are incompetent, or driving with their minds anywhere else but on what they are doing.

I hear this a lot. Average drivers aren't crap, by definition they're "average".

Not sure what the motive for claiming otherwise is, other than an attempt to claim one is "other than average" and wishes to advertise the fact.