Something to think about now and before the next election!

**mashman** · 10th January 2012, 10:07

Originally Posted by schrodingers cat

And, as I asked before, which country is your model. Who is doing it better and why?

Take it to the polls.

None of them. I think that's the point, or at least one of them, of the thread.

Now you're takin the piss.

**schrodingers cat** · 10th January 2012, 10:16

Maybe it doesn't get much better than this...

**mashman** · 10th January 2012, 10:18

Originally Posted by oldrider

The idea behind this thread was to cast aside the current incumbents and for us to discuss and think about what it would be like if it was "good"!

I spend a lot of time shifting the junk around in my shed, when what it really needs is a total clear out .... now "that" would be good!

The problem is I get attached to some of the junk and think it might come in handy one day! ... What a load of bullshit!

I had stuff that I had saved from when I was an apprentice and never used, have been carting around for years and had to "pay" to dump it the other day!

What sort of "fail" do you call that!

Parliament is a bit like my shed, it needs a periodical "clean-out" and the 5 monkey theory sort of fits the bill.

We just hang on to these pricks for all the wrong reasons and we (or our children, grandchildren etc.) "pay" for it in the end!

Perhaps we should just bight the bullet and clean the shed out periodically!

I went for a dump about 3 years ago and came to a similar conclusion. If it was "good", we would be able to build what we wanted because it needed to be built (Christchurch for starters). People would be fed, watered and entertained (cigs, xbox, booze, whatever poison etc...) to a degree where they wouldn't feel the need to take other people's stuff or suffer from any form of financial pressure. Anything other than that would be gravy.

As individuals looking out for individuals, or friendly groups of individuals, it isn't working. If people can't "make it" on their own, they shouldn't be allowed to live or shouldn't receive as much as anyone else because they are obviously less worthy being the prevailing ignorant attitude.

It would be great to have $10 million in spare change to be able to buy the expertise and advertising required to reach every single person in NZ with a well thought through brand spankin new idea that people won't just file under the red carpet or behind the green door.

How would DSC + Libertarian work in practice in regards to day to day living? What does it answer? and in no more than 500 words

**mashman** · 10th January 2012, 10:19

Originally Posted by schrodingers cat

Maybe it doesn't get much better than this...

ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaa... you might be right, but I have my reservations.

**willytheekid** · 10th January 2012, 10:41

...not ANOTHER political thread

The Govnt looks after its own...simple as that!, they look after there own pay packs, their mates, and the corporates and rich pricks who "donated" to their party.
...end of story!

When corporate funding of individual polliticians & parties is banned, and HUGE "donations" from party "backers" are also banned, we might be off to a good start.
BUT it is the system that needs changing...not the party!

Why?...because each party is really the same!!!
...they all lie pre election...they then do what their "Financial backers" want, NOT what the NZ people want or need.
And every elected partie has done the same thing over the years...screwed us! for their own gain or their mates...THEN gave themselves a very speedy payrise for doing so (fastest bill through NZ govn't EVERY time, EVERY party...their own payrise!....that say's it all really!)

I agree with OldRider....BUT...I believe the monkeys AND the dirty shit filled cage need to be thrown away and replaced.

I gave up on pollitics years ago...getting repeatedly pelted by shit flinging monkeys gets old fast!

**puddytat** · 10th January 2012, 10:54

Seems to me that we're being set up to fail basically .....when we have secret deals being made that will directly effect us all like the TPP & when these deals will become international law, they will supercede our own National laws & allow companies to "sue" us for not being able to make money. We have countries like Japan & Israel who continually flout international laws with absolutely no consequences. Plus we must not forget that when certain industries are granted the right to do what they like, it sets a precedent which means we can not stop others from doing the same or if we try, we have multinationals who will tie us up in knots in international courts at a huge expense to us . Corporate Feudalism anyone?
We have the continued dumbing down effect of the media,the continuing attempt by Murdoch et al to to control what we see, hear, do,think(or not) & is now intalks with the Govt. to get their piece of pie from "Free to view" t.v. Why is it that John Key has never been on National Radio....'cause they ask questions which he isnt competent enough to handle.
We have Govts worldwide introducing more laws to control US, while they cant get their shit together to do anything about the people who are responsible for the mess.
We have a third of our nation who are so dispossesd, disinfranchished, depressed, dumb that they cant even be bothered using the one right that can make a difference....vote.
I bet if we all voted them out as a protest,they would invoke martial law.
It was this continued "Growth" at all costs that got us into this mess,why will it get us out of it?
When we have a respected fellow like David Attenborough making dire predictions about our future, we get a smear campaign in the media about him using a different polar bear cub to discredit him & deflect the message that he's pushing.FFS!!

Honestly oldrider, I think this a really important topic you raise, but I think that there is only a small percentage of our society that ever go looking further than what they see on the 6 oclock news , & who are able to get their heads around or even contemplate logically what the other side is saying without getting into the kneejerk reaction mode of I will only vote/think Red , Green , Blue, Pink.....& I feel that because of this dogma, we will never be able to make even the simplest of changes to our society which will be necessary to ensure our continued survival past the end of the century. I wish we could.

But no...we wont. I think that at this rate we are heading for collapse of societies worldwide.But instead of being proactive which would entail us doin something sooner rather than later,the Govts are taking an easier approach which is to ignore the big issues of pollution, climate change, overpopulation,species extiction (possibly including ourselves) & are letting our own greed & selfishness dig our own grave while all the time setting up more laws to control us when it happens......people world wide unbeknowingly to the majority, have been losing more rights & freedoms in the last 10 years than since we were granted the right to vote.'Tis only in the last 100 odd years people, have we had this right. We need to be careful that we dont lose that.

**avgas** · 10th January 2012, 10:54

Originally Posted by oldrider

This is how parliament operates... and is why, from time to time, ALL OF THE MONKEYS NEED TO BE REPLACED AT THE SAME TIME!.

Apply this reasoning across the political spectrum and before the next election ask your self and each other .... will we do well again this time?.

Sorry for stating the obvious. But your analogy makes it a perfect line up for the NZ Govt.

If all the Monkeys are in the cage is some form of amusement, and they are not doing what you want. Why keep a cage of monkeys?
Who is still amused with the Beehive?
Replacing the monkeys won't change the fact that you have just wasted time MAINTAINING caged animals.

**avgas** · 10th January 2012, 10:57

Originally Posted by schrodingers cat

Maybe it doesn't get much better than this...

The unthinking majority seem to think so. Ignorance is bliss you see.

**puddytat** · 10th January 2012, 11:05

Originally Posted by schrodingers cat

Maybe it doesn't get much better than this...

Honestly, I dont think it will .And because its so good now its even harder than ever for people to make the necessary changes which will inevitably be required to live sustainably on our finite planet.

**schrodingers cat** · 10th January 2012, 11:20

Originally Posted by avgas

The unthinking majority seem to think so. Ignorance is bliss you see.

On the whole I try to ignore the things I can't change. Otherwise my life is misery and nothing has changed. What you are calling ignorance can also be informed choice. A choice that not all agree with.

Not all of us have the passion for revolution. However, for a revolution to work, it needs the support of the masses.

So sell it to me.

**SMOKEU** · 10th January 2012, 11:33

I will vote for whoever promises to:

1. Decriminalise possession of cannabis and cultivation for personal use.

2. Crack down hard on crime, especially violence, vehicle theft and burglary. Make it harder for criminals to get released on parole and increase prison sentences dramatically.

3. Rebuild the driver licensing system to reduce the number of muppets on the roads. Make drivers licenses expire every 2 years with a compulsory theory test to renew it.

4. Make "life skills" a compulsory part of high school education. Teach kids how to manage their money, the basics of the legal system etc.

I know that I'm dreaming

**willytheekid** · 10th January 2012, 11:36

Originally Posted by puddytat

I bet if we all voted them out as a protest,they would invoke martial law.

Nope!...sorry can't do that!, they removed the option for a "Vote of No Confidence"...(check your voting papers etc)...its not their anymore

WHY??...because this option is to dangerous!...it give US "the people", to much power and say in how our country is run...hence...they got rid of it! (But they did it quietly...of course)

...don't ya love living in a democracy with a TRUE democratic voting system

...well...THEIR version of a democracy

Now get back to the feilds SERVE!

note:
"The 20th Century Italian thinkers Vilfredo Pareto and Gaetano Mosca (independently) argued that democracy was illusory, and served only to mask the reality of elite rule. Indeed, they argued that elite oligarchy is the unbendable law of human nature, due largely to the apathy and division of the masses (as opposed to the drive, initiative and unity of the elites), and that democratic institutions would do no more than shift the exercise of power from oppression to manipulation"

.....And yet we still think it works for "all"

**puddytat** · 10th January 2012, 11:40

Originally Posted by schrodingers cat

On the whole I try to ignore the things I can't change. Otherwise my life is misery and nothing has changed. What you are calling ignorance can also be informed choice. A choice that not all agree with.

Not all of us have the passion for revolution. However, for a revolution to work, it needs the support of the masses.

So sell it to me.

We're in negotiatations with a russian dude at the moment, what do you want? AK 47,RPG,

**mashman** · 10th January 2012, 11:40

So even if we get to run our own country, or get people in place that care enough to make the big decisions in regards to telling the rest of the world to fuck off, we will be held to ransom by trade agreements and pieces of paper that NZers never voted for, sorry voted for, in order to keep their economy growing so that foreign companies can take more money out of the country than they put in which in turn causes the govt to borrow from overseas entities.

Then you're going to have to come up with a system that will work irrespective of the demands of the rest of the world. Anyone have one in their back pocket?