Ports of Auckland

[Hinny]

Would, or could, the Union haters give examples of the societies that exemplify their industrial relations policy ideals?

[mashman]

Don't know where it came from but it's definitely a Kiwi thing. Not surprising a lot of them don't come back from their OE where they're better recognised, better paid and there's far better prospects.

It ain't just a Kiwi thing ... Tis an attitude associated with capitalism and it happens in just about every country in the world in just about every field of human endeavour. I didn't come here for the money... but it seems as though things really aren't that different in comparison to the little island I came from. Something I didn't expect. Hey ho.

[Swoop]

The restriction is he must be able to show good faith and fair process in reaching the final decision.

"Good faith" is not a term that could have been applied in our extremely protracted negotiations... Even mediation was a farce.

[Winston001]

Would, or could, the Union haters give examples of the societies that exemplify their industrial relations policy ideals?

I don't think there is a blanket anti-union bias here or in the general population. The Service and Food Workers Union which represents aged care workers and other low paid employees seems to get public sympathy. Even the freezing workers on strike don't draw the opprobrium of a generation ago.

The waterfront has been a bottle-neck and focus of power ever since trade between nations became important. It is a critical point in an economy, the one spot where exports and imports come together. So its no surprise that with the rise of trade unionism, waterfronts around the world have experienced stoppages. The answer generally is to pay the men more and keep the port operating.

Times change. Technologies change. The Port of Tauranga only a short distance from Auckland functions well and with greater throughput than Auckland. Presumably the workers there aren't fools. Currently people are working on the Auckland wharves. Presumably they aren't fools either. The POA continues to function.

So we have to ask ourselves whether MUNZ is really protecting its members or is fighting a rear-guard action to protect historical power and control on the waterfront.

Interesting times.

[Hinny]

I don't think there is a blanket anti-union bias here or in the general population.

Not a blanket anti-union bias on Kb - granted; but it is a majority one.

Is there anyone able to put up and have the courage of their convictions?

Give examples of countries that don't have a unionised labour force that they see as a shining example of the type of society they would like to live in.

[avgas]

Don't know where it came from but it's definitely a Kiwi thing. Not surprising a lot of them don't come back from their OE where they're better recognised, better paid and there's far better prospects.
I was once advised not to get into tech development roles on the basis that "there's nothing as obsolete as a successful development engineer." It's true enough, but the obsolescence is driven by the belief that the company is marketing a product. It's not.

Mash has said it already, but sadly not just a NZ thing (or a capitalist thing - case and point china/russia).
In Aussie I had 3 managers who managed me and the projects I was on. I had to sign 3 different reports a week. When I walked out the door - they suddenly realized all the i.p. was not in their reports.....but my head. The projects collapsed like a house of cards.

There will always be a power grabber, and there will always be people who break their backs to put bread on the table. Not sure what happens when that ratio gets out of whack.....but suspect we will see eventually.
I guess I can be thankful that I am now qualified (or is that diversified) enough to go up or fall back.

[ellipsis]

...it's a game of money and merchants and power and backhanders and lies and good people and arseholes and downright cunts and happy in their pile of shit people on the sidelines and forever it shall be...cyclic swings of influence are just a normal part of a world we HAVE to play in...power to the people...workers of the world unite...down with the despots, are all just words vying with the age old 'I'm alright Jack', attitude that the dishonest and sometimes naive politicians wend their self justifying lies about and depend on....

...when all of the populace realises that their next decision in life is up to them and we stop rewarding lazy,apathetic, relentlessly breeding, bludgers and losers and our kids get a kick in the arse for the own wellbeing and the leaders actually lead by example instead of leading the race to the trough and people realised that just 'cos you want it doesn't make it yours....we may be able to sort it all out...'til then, pick your side or stay ineffectually stuck in the middle for the duration, which is generally a long time...a good old fashioned Queen and Country war always sorts things out...they seem a thing of the past...carry on...as an aside...my son just started a job in oz...three days labour paid him more than five and a half as a time served m/c mechanic here...hard working kiwis are being royally fucked by a bunch of thieving bastards...end of story..

[avgas]

Give examples of countries that don't have a unionised labour force that they see as a shining example of the type of society they would like to live in.

Name a country that doesn't have a church? an Army? a tax department?

I have said it before here, but feel I should repeat it "I'm and engineer who dreams of utopia - but never gets the budget"
But this is an interesting read. http://open.salon.com/blog/steve_kli...ises_wages_why
- Did the unions of China force the Foxconn pay rise?
- Did the bloggers/activists of the world force it?
- Did Foxconn force it?
- Did Apple force it?

and most importantly
- IF the price got to high and Foxconn automated its plant, firing all the workers - would there have been an advantage?

I have no problem with the union model - only with the people who step up to run it. Its now a global economy, unions need to wake up to this fact - they need to stop being a problem of why work is becoming a problem and start becoming a solution.
I haven't seen a single Port Union worker in talks with Maersk (and others) to see if they can resolve the issue. I haven't seen a single Port Union worker saying they are in talks with parties to create a second port of Auckland.
Seems they like to sit safely behind the employment laws and say


Well boys, throw your toys all you want. PoT workers are buying new cars and houses while you fuck around.
Its a big bad world out there.

[Ocean1]

Mash has said it already, but sadly not just a NZ thing (or a capitalist thing - case and point china/russia).

Managers. Confidence isn't all it's cracked up to be...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect

[Hinny]

I haven't seen a single Port Union worker in talks with Maersk (and others) to see if they can resolve the issue.

I wonder why that is.
Would you normally be privy to such a meeting ?

What issue would they be attempting to resolve talking with Maersk.

[RDJ]

Not a blanket anti-union bias on Kb - granted; but it is a majority one.

Is there anyone able to put up and have the courage of their convictions?

Give examples of countries that don't have a unionised labour force that they see as a shining example of the type of society they would like to live in.

Your "challenge" is a non sequitur. We in KB already live in the society that we like to live in = New Zealand.
It's not a question of blanket anti-union bias, it's that most of us prefer our country not allow people with a chokehold on an industrial artery such as the Port dragging industrial relations back to the 50s/60s. If you approve of the Union taking this sort of action - are you then comfortable for frontline nurses or doctors or other vital industries taking similar action?

[Hinny]

Your "challenge" is a non sequitur. We in KB already live in the society that we like to live in = New Zealand.
It's not a question of blanket anti-union bias, it's that most of us prefer our country not allow people with a chokehold on an industrial artery such as the Port dragging industrial relations back to the 50s/60s. If you approve of the Union taking this sort of action - are you then comfortable for frontline nurses or doctors or other vital industries taking similar action?

I disagree.
We clearly have a large number of people living in New Zealand that are not happy with the society we have and want to change it.
The point I was trying to make is that the end result of the adoption of many of the ideals they espouse is a recipe for disaster. Policies that are the norm in those countries that are at the bottom of the Standard of Living index.
Should we not be adopting the policies of countries at the top of said index?

You are clearly of the opinion that the union is the bad guy in this dispute.
Judicial reviews notwithstanding huh?
Notwithstanding the heavy PR campaigns waged by the POA that have been shown to be misleading at best.
Are you privy to information about this dispute that the general public is not aware of?

Is it not time to dispel illusion and hatred?

Of note perhaps is that the 50s/60s were the golden years for NZ. When we once reigned supreme in the Standard of Living Index.

[Hinny]

Here is a relevant non sequiter.
http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/...mutable_758133

[trustme]

I disagree.
We clearly have a large number of people living in New Zealand that are not happy with the society we have and want to change it.
The point I was trying to make is that the end result of the adoption of many of the ideals they espouse is a recipe for disaster. Policies that are the norm in those countries that are at the bottom of the Standard of Living index.
Should we not be adopting the policies of countries at the top of said index?

You are clearly of the opinion that the union is the bad guy in this dispute.
Judicial reviews notwithstanding huh?
Notwithstanding the heavy PR campaigns waged by the POA that have been shown to be misleading at best.
Are you privy to information about this dispute that the general public is not aware of?

Is it not time to dispel illusion and hatred?

Of note perhaps is that the 50s/60s were the golden years for NZ. When we once reigned supreme in the Standard of Living Index.

I am not necessarily anti union but there is a bloody big HOWEVER. Hatred seems to be mainly coming from the likes of Helen Kelly & her ilk who are equally as disingenuous as the POA , both are being extremely self serving in their propoganda. POA has a goal of increasing productivity , the unions can go along for the ride or fuck off ultimately the choice is theirs.

The 50's & 60's were indeed our golden years. Our markets were guaranteed , imports were severely restricted so the local market was protected the cost plus mentality ruled. Unions became extremely powerful over this period, that power extended into the 70's & 80's but our markets were no longer guaranteed, we had to compete with the rest of the world. A bloody cold hard lesson should have been learned when the medicine for the countries woes was given in the form of Rogernomics. The lesson was not learnt by the last labour govt who set about recreating the warm cosy 60's. A recession comes along & more unpleasant medicine is necessary.
Harking back to the good old days is futile, lets think of some of the union shit from those days.
BNZ Bulding Wgtn a skeleton on the skyline for years
Mangere Bridge, we wondered if the 2 ends would ever meet
Ferries , every school holiday they went on strike
Pulp & Paper industry, you would not believe some of the demarcation shit, was it a fitter or a sparkies job to take the doors off an electrical panel, lets strike while we sort it.
Fitter leaves a spanner behind, supervisor picks it up & returns it to him, all out because the supervisor was working
Steel Mill Supervisor while driving to work on a filthy wet day picks up 2 guys waiting for the co supplied bus. Stop work called, he was doing the bus drivers job
Brick Works Vote to strike is lost , union organiser calls another ballot while delegates stand at strategic places around the room , vote to strike carried

I could fill pages with this shit , 50's/ 60's the halcyon days or simply the calm before the storm.
I was surprised this week while dealing with a straddle driver from another port. In no particular order, He thought the AK guys were dickheads, It's cushiest job he ever had, Mid $20's / hr, 5 weeks leave, medical insurance for the family, $ for $ pension scheme, thought Tauranga needed improved training as they had a high accident rate [ 1 of the accidents he talked about I have a little knowledge of , the deceased was a very safety conscious worker who ran the companies safety training seminars , shit can happen to the best of us ]

I don't hate the unions but I sure as hell don't have much time for the organisers who are only to keen to take men out on strike. The organiser plays politics and still gets paid while the wives & kids at home are the ones who really pay the price. The families are the real losers in all this, the fat cat organisers cry crocodile tears.

[Macontour]

When Lee Iacocca left Ford and went to Chrysler in the 70s, he had massive problems to deal with. The US auto industry was in pieces, tens of thousands of jobs were at risk. One of the biggest problems was the Unions and the way they ran the workers. The workers only had to work 30 years for the company and could retire on a full pension, they and their families got all sorts of medical care paid for and so on. Eventually, to save the company, one of the things Iacocca had to do was call the Union heads in and tell them he had thousands of jobs at $17/hour and none at $20/hour(70s wages!!!!) and they had until the morning to decide whether they would drop their demands or he would declare bankruptcy.

His autobiography is a very interesting read. It is 30 years old now but he is a very wise man and many of the issues he mentions in that book occured in the US two years ago with the collapse of the financial system and all the automaakers requiring Government bailouts yet again.