You reap what you sow, or Karma?

[mashman]

Yup, time is a single flow in one direction, or at least that's what it feels like to us, same diffs. I mean the connection between past events and present consequences is not nice, neat, clinical, that kind of linear. It's a tree, not a line, or something.

I need to parse the rest of your response further and can't do that just yet as I had better go indulge in some productive karma or there may be some unpleasant consequences, knowwhaddamean. One observation, we learn by stories, and memory is the tool we use to soften the harsh reality of our history into a nice fairy tale (or horror story) that we can guide our future with. You are what you are because of what you and others have already done. You may become something else tomorrow, that's not my point.

heh, to borrow a line from the 5th element: "Time not important. Only life important.". are you referring to my "wake"? or to the branches that I ignored along the way? this would be sooooo much easier in person eh .

If your present is defined by your past actions and your present actions define your future, then your past being your present is also your future? Almost fatelistic. You are who you have been and therefore you are who you will be. End of path reached if you see what I mean. I do not believe we are our past, as people change due to their perceived future and not in response to their past events... not a thick and fast rule, but more so than a reaction to our past I would venture. Clearer than mud?

[rainman]

are you referring to my "wake"? or to the branches that I ignored along the way?

No, just saying the present (or the future, when it becomes the present) has many causes, and causes many things. It's a mesh. There are also many possible paths through the mess/h of life but I don't care much about multiple universes etc, only the path my actual experience takes me.

If your present is defined by your past actions and your present actions define your future, then your past being your present is also your future? Almost fatelistic. You are who you have been and therefore you are who you will be. End of path reached if you see what I mean. I do not believe we are our past, as people change due to their perceived future and not in response to their past events... not a thick and fast rule, but more so than a reaction to our past I would venture. Clearer than mud?

Well, actions (karma, remember) in your past can affect your present, and your future (and if you hang around a bit, your past). But karma/vipaka is not deterministic, least I don't think so. Sometimes shit does just happen, including good shit, of course. So, no to the fatalism - besides aren't you discounting the effects of future karma?

[rainman]

I am what I am, and where I am today, because of my actions...Karma had nothing to do with it.

I missed this one when I skimmed the thread earlier. Are you taking the piss (because if so, that's a bit Zen) or are you serious?

[avgas]

I believe you have to be crazy in this world to not kill yourself. Not completely insane - but just crazy enough to accept it as it is.

Anyone who thinks this is not the case should probably kill themselves now - because chances are buddy if your trying to change it, you are not likely to enjoy the result.

As for Karma - she is a cruel mistress. But like most women she is also not very observant. So people do slip through the cracks.

[mashman]

No, just saying the present (or the future, when it becomes the present) has many causes, and causes many things. It's a mesh. There are also many possible paths through the mess/h of life but I don't care much about multiple universes etc, only the path my actual experience takes me.

So you're looking at your past/present/future from an overview perspective and including what could/should have been and what actually came to pass? with an eye on your effect on others?

Well, actions (karma, remember) in your past can affect your present, and your future (and if you hang around a bit, your past). But karma/vipaka is not deterministic, least I don't think so. Sometimes shit does just happen, including good shit, of course. So, no to the fatalism - besides aren't you discounting the effects of future karma?

I understand that we can get bitten or vice versa in regards to our past etc... but that does not necessarily mean that that is who we are today. I'm with you on the shit happening thing and once upon a time not so long ago would have discounted future karma with a chortle and potentially a sarcastic comment in regards to captains of ships or some sort... these days my gaze is a little wider and it's everyone's future that concerns me and to a larger degree than my past, that's what defines/"drives" me.

Edity edit: In which case I do believe in karma, but don't "practice" it thoughtfully.

[rainman]

As for Karma - she is a cruel mistress. But like most women she is also not very observant. So people do slip through the cracks.

Wotcha on about, dude? Who is this cruel mistress? Some kind of cosmic being, maybe a goddess?

Karma is just the actions you take that are driven by an intention. They have consequences, that arise out of a complicated web of dependencies. There is no cosmic point system. There is no-one to administer anything like that. How would it work?

[Ocean1]

Wotcha on about, dude? Who is this cruel mistress? Some kind of cosmic being, maybe a goddess?

A solipsist.

How would it work?

Sometimes my subconscious, recalling an indiscretion against one of my imaginary constructs causes me to stub my toe, or fail to miss a gorse bush.

[Edbear]

This thread has brought up a wide range of opinion for sure!

My original question related to whether the place we are in now is mainly due to the result of choices we have made or of circumstance. Obviously it must be a combination of both but my interest was in how much of each contributed.

Plainly it is not an easy question to answer as the two are so intertwined as to be indistinguishable in isolation. Perhaps it is best to conclude they have equal responsibility for our present state.

So when we hear or speak of those who say, "It's not my fault because..." blaming circumstance for their situation how common is it really? All here seem to take responsibility for their situation or for how they respond to circumstances.

[mashman]

All here seem to take responsibility for their situation or for how they respond to circumstances.

Probably because there's nothing to lose.

[Edbear]

Probably because there's nothing to lose.

Possibly right. When we get clobbered by circumstance, be it illness, accident or some other misfortune, we have two choices; give up and wallow in our misery or pick ourselves up and make the best of things.

On KB we see for ourselves the amazing courage and fortitude of people who have fought their adversity and made the best they could of their lives even when given the worst prognosis.

I just watched an interview with Michael J. Fox who does not regret contracting Parkinson's disease due to the direction and purpose it has given him in his life. Replacing the false life of movie stardom with reality and resulting in a more rewarding life.

For myself, although I have a medical history filled with pain and suffering, of disability and near death, I believe I would not be the man I am today without going through those experiences. My accident in May 2010 was the best thing that could have happened in the way it changed my life despite the ongoing pain and disability I now live with.

They say, "That which does not kill us serves to make us stronger." and as we look around we see many examples of this.

[Big Dave]

Given the choice I'll take healthy and shallow.

[Edbear]

Given the choice I'll take healthy and shallow.

Ah, yeah, I have to agree there must be an easier way somehow... My wife pleaded with me to give her one year where I didn't try to kill myself. I said it would have to be next year as this year I have he small matter of an 8mm kidney stone to sort out and a test result showing some abnormal cells they need to resolve...

[Zedder]

A solipsist.



Sometimes my subconscious, recalling an indiscretion against one of my imaginary constructs causes me to stub my toe, or fail to miss a gorse bush.

I was wondering how far we would get before this philosophy came up.

[FJRider]

All here seem to take responsibility for their situation or for how they respond to circumstances.

All too often ... the decision choice and responsibility is not ours to make. A left turn at an intersection, instead of a right turn ... may mean we live ... or die.

[rainman]

I was wondering how far we would get before this philosophy came up.

Doesn't add that much value, though, to us in reality - does it?

It's more like intellectual wankery, in fact.