Now I've seen it all...

[skippa1]

WINZ encourage the pricks now. I have had several that I have dismissed or have left of their own accord, they go to WINZ and they are advised to take a PG. I was talking with the local WINZ person they have been instructed to issue this advice as it may delay the person getting on a benefit.....OR the employer may have a change of heart and reinstate them. Fuckin ratshit when you employ people.....the system is against you all the way

[tigertim20]

ha, wow. seems like its fucking near impossible to fire someone once youve given them a job nowadays huh?

Agreed, but can you see how this is different from employment law? Interestingly enough the police probably would have ended up covering much of the same ground the employment court judge mentioned, was the threat real, was it heat of the moment with no real intent, was the offender ready to back down etc. All the stuff the employment process is meant to cover.

.

correct, to make a conviction stick for threatening to kill, the victim must convince the court that they felt, at that time, that the threat was legitimate.

Yup I'm currently dealing with someone who has made threats against my 5yr old daughter and me, threats to kill. There is a protection order against him from my ex-wife covering her and my daughter, but to him that means nothing. Went to the police this morning, they were quite good actually. Gave us the option of having him arrested right now or given a warning.

a shame though, those orders look great on paper - but all the mean is 'after said person has broken into your home and half killed you, he will get slapped with TWO wet bus tickets by a friendly judge, instead of the usual one'
they afford no actual protection other than the implied (false) sense of safety.

Hope that works out OK for ya.

[Kickaha]

ha, wow. seems like its fucking near impossible to fire someone once youve given them a job nowadays huh?

Not really, but you have to make sure you follow all the correct procedure or you'll get hammered

[Oakie]

....the system is against you all the way

No. There is a system but it's not against you, you just have to play by it's rules. Think of it as any old sport. There are rules and if you don't abide by them you're probably not going to do so well. In a game of footy you can't just smack someone in the head even if they have done wrong. Gotta play by the rules.

I've been involved in 6 dismissals at work now. It's not an easy process but we've not had a PG in the 5.5 years I've been there. Playing by the rules gives the offender a fair hearing but also makes dismissals, when they happen, fairly safe.

If this case happened at my work they guy would be stood down on pay and an investigation would happen. No way I'd dismiss immediately ... probably not for nearly anything. We've even had someone assault another person and it was three days before they were gone.

Bottom line is that more PGs succeed because of flawed procedure rather than the facts of the case.

[skippa1]

No. There is a system but it's not against you, you just have to play by it's rules. Think of it as any old sport. There are rules and if you don't abide by them you're probably not going to do so well. In a game of footy you can't just smack someone in the head even if they have done wrong. Gotta play by the rules.

I've been involved in 6 dismissals at work now. It's not an easy process but we've not had a PG in the 5.5 years I've been there. Playing by the rules gives the offender a fair hearing but also makes dismissals, when they happen, fairly safe.

If this case happened at my work they guy would be stood down on pay and an investigation would happen. No way I'd dismiss immediately ... probably not for nearly anything. We've even had someone assault another person and it was three days before they were gone.

Bottom line is that more PGs succeed because of flawed procedure rather than the facts of the case.

what a load of bulls arse....its not about whether the PG is succesful or not, its about the fact that they bring one at all. I have employed up to 95 FTEs (including managers that earn up to $90k/pa) and have been employing people for over 20 years. Its not about whether they or you get a fair go, its about the fact that they are encouraged to take a PG and the management cost involved in dealing with them. I have spent a fortune over the years dealing with pricks that think they may get a payout. I have sat in mediations and have sat in employment hearings and I can tell you from hard earned experience that its not a matter of process or anything else, it has everything to do with how much you as the employeer are prepared to spend defending your position and what the balance is between spending management time defending or paying them out so you can move on. And WINZ encourage them to do it.
There is a process, dont get me wrong, and it must be followed, but it has fuck all to do with the employee bringing a PG and your cost.

[98tls]

Bottom line is that more PGs succeed because of flawed procedure rather than the facts of the case.

How many hours are wasted to ensure the right "procedure" eh not to mention how many otherwise unemployables are employed to see it through.What ive always found somewhat amusing is all the govt departments full of otherwise unemployables employed to see the average working man has some rights have made far more blokes unemployed than what they were designed to do.

[Oakie]

How many hours are wasted to ensure the right "procedure" :

Not wasted. Invested.

[Oakie]

what a load of bulls arse....its not about whether the PG is succesful or not, its about the fact that they bring one at all.

Yeah. That part hurts. Apparantly the average cost the year before last of succesfully defending a PG was $9800. And that was to win!. The point I make though is that if your reason to dismiss is 'an action a reasonable employer could take' and your process is not flawed then it is much less likely that a lawyer will go into bat for a loser ... although unless they are a 'no win - no fee' type then they still get paid regardless. Perhaps it's the lawyers that are the problem.

[unstuck]

I got fired from a gold mine once for threatening to give the foreman a bit of attitude adjustment, and when I went into social welfare to look for another job, they tried to talk me into taking the company to court for wrongful dismissal. They said I could probably get around 8-10 grand. Not my cup of tea though, I would of settled for a couple of rounds with the foreman. Learn and move on was and is my motto.

[Ocean1]

it has everything to do with how much you as the employeer are prepared to spend defending your position and what the balance is between spending management time defending or paying them out so you can move on.

Which is why the majority of claims are for about $8k, just a tad less than the cost of fighting it.

And it's the businesses that take the easy way out that keep the PG rort working. If they simply followed a few basic rules and fought every claim on it's merit the whole dodgy industry would fold.

[Woodman]

I had a colleague that was taking a guy through the disciplinary process only to have the guy hand in his resignation before it was finished. The guy went to winz to apply for the dole and they said he had to wait the stand down period because he resigned, but he could get the dole straight away if he had a personal grievance againnst his employer. He took the pg and the dole and got $6k for constructive dismissal. Its friggen bollocks, but taught me a lesson when I caught a guy on camera flogging cash from the till, his lawyer at the final meeting offered up his resignation. I refused to accept it until after the final decision. She pushed very very hard for me to accept it to. Pretty sure she was thinking of a Pg as well.

the Winz staff should not be encouraging this process, its not their job.

[Tigadee]

I heard somewhere that it's cheaper to kill someone [manslaughter, not murder - something like that] than to fire them... Probably not true although may not be far off! LOL

[Oakie]

, his lawyer at the final meeting offered up his resignation. I refused to accept it until after the final decision. She pushed very very hard for me to accept it to. Pretty sure she was thinking of a Pg as well.

Yep. That's the way. You only accept their resignation after you have told them that the decision is to terminate. That way you get to defend any PG on the circumstances of the case rather than against a constructive dismissal claim. The last five of ours have each gone that way. Generally after we tell them the decision is to terminate we give them the chance to offer a resignation so they have a CV which shows they resigned rather than having a dismissal. We don't want to ruin their prospects, just move them on, hopefully a little wiser.

[Oakie]

I heard somewhere that it's cheaper to kill someone [manslaughter, not murder - something like that] than to fire them... Probably not true although may not be far off! LOL

Not cheaper, just quicker.

[Tigadee]

That is, the financial penalty is less severe for manslaughter than dismissing an employee?

But I guess that was just a myth anyway...