Red Flags - Should you get points if you cause a red flag event and DNF?

[DEATH_INC.]

Didn't it used to be long ago that the cause of the red couldn't restart or be counted as a finisher? Or am I thinking of something else....

I don't think it's right, you could potentially go out riding way over your head and consistently get points for being dangerous if you did it every race.....

[Bykmad]

Why oh Why Marcus. Do some research and use the relevant Moto GP rules in their entirety, because they work. When people cherry pick the little bits that they like they normally make rules that are unenforceable.
Here is the link.
http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/GP_en.pdf
Pages 43 - 45.

Here is the relative rule from the FIM website.

1.25 Interruption of a race
1.25.1 If the Race Director decides to interrupt a race, then red flags will be
displayed at the finish line and at all marshals’ posts and he will switch
on the red lights around the circuit. Riders must immediately slow down
and return to the pit lane.
The results will be the results taken at the last point where the leader
and all other riders on the same lap as the leader had completed a full
lap without the red flag being displayed
Exception: if the race is interrupted after the chequered flag, the following
procedure will apply:
1) For all the riders to whom the chequered flag was shown before the
interruption, a partial classification will be established at the end of the
last lap of the race.
2) For all the riders to whom the chequered flag was not shown before
the interruption, a partial classification will be established at the end of
the penultimate lap of the race.
3) The complete classification will be established by combining both
partial classifications as per the lap/time procedure.
At the time the red flag is displayed, riders who are not actively competing
in the race will not be classified.
Within 5 minutes after the red flag has been displayed, riders who have
not entered the pit lane, pushing or riding on their motorcycle, will not
be classified.
1.25.2 If the results calculated show that less than three laps have been
completed by the leader of the race and by all other riders on the same
lap as the leader, then the race will be null and void and a completely
new race will be run.
If it is found impossible to re-start the race, then it will be declared
cancelled and the race will not count for the Championship.
43
6510002_GP course sur route.indd 91 06.02.12 17:301.25.3 If three laps or more have been completed by the leader of the race and
all other riders on the same lap as the leader, but less than two-thirds of
the original race distance, rounded down to the nearest whole number
of laps, then the race will be restarted according to Art. 1.26.
If it is found impossible to restart the race, then the results will count and
half points will be awarded in the Championship.
1.25.4 If the results calculated show that two-thirds of the original race distance
rounded down to the nearest whole number of laps have been completed
by the leader of the race and by all other riders on the same lap as the
leader, then for the Moto3 and Moto2 classes the race will be deemed
to have been completed and full Championship points will be awarded.
For the MotoGP class, the race will be restarted for a minimum of 5 laps
according to Art. 1.26.
If it is found impossible to restart the race, then the results will count and
full Championship points will be awarded.
1.26 Re-Starting a race that has been interrupted
1.26.1 If a race has to be re-started, then it will be done as quickly as possible,
consistent with track conditions allowing. As soon as the riders have
returned to the pits the Clerk of the Course will announce a time for the
new start procedure to begin which, conditions permitting, should not be
later than 10 minutes after the initial display of the red flag.
1.26.2 The results of the first race must be available to teams before the second
part of a race can be started.
1.26.3 The start procedure will be identical to a normal start with sighting laps,
warm-up lap, etc.
1.26.4 Conditions for the re-started race will be as follows:
i) In the case of situation described in 1.25.2(less than 3 laps
completed) above:
a. All riders may re-start.
44
6510002_GP course sur route.indd 93 06.02.12 17:30 b. Motorcycles may be repaired or changed. Refuelling is
permitted.
c. - For Moto3 and Moto2, the number of laps will be two-thirds
of the original race distance rounded down to the nearest
whole number of laps.
- For MotoGP, the number of laps will be the same as the
original race distance.
d. The grid positions will be as for the original race.
ii) In the case of situation described in 1.25.3 (3 laps or more and less
than two-thirds completed) and 1.25.4 (two-thirds completed for
MotoGP only) above:
a. Only riders who are classified as finishers in the first race may
re-start.
b. Motorcycles may be repaired or changed. Refuelling is
permitted.
c. - For Moto3 and Moto2, the number of laps of the second race
will be the number of laps required to complete two-thirds of
the original race distance rounded down to the nearest whole
number of laps with a minimum of 5 laps.
- For MotoGP, the number of laps of the second race will be the
number of laps required to complete the original race distance
with a minimum of 5 laps.
d. The grid position will be based on the finishing order of the first
race.
e. The final race classification will be established according to
the position and the consolidated number of laps of each rider
at the time he crossed the finish line at the end of the last part
of the race. Provisions of Art. 1.24.4 will apply.

The relevant rule numbers from the MNZ GCR's would have to be inserted.


Now you have the correct wording, submit your rule change, but don't do things half arsed, because it is not you that has to enforce rules.

[Drew]

I don't get your point? Its not about whos at blame for an accident...and I 100% agree with you that you win some you lose some and that is why I think it is far better to exclude anyone who was not on there bike at the time the Red Flag was shown from any points or any restart opportunitys as Disco Dan suggested (regardless if they were caught up in an accident from someone elses misjudgment). That protects everyones points who is still racing.

Its just stupid and completely illogical that someone can potentially win a race yet crash out aswell (actually this happened on the weekend with David who was winning our race but then crashed - which bought this point to mind again) ...thats not right?! As it turned out David couldn't make the next race so the points were not affected in any way but still, this rule is a dumb one and if I was the one who crashed I would still think it is a dumb one and wouldn't think I should get points for red flagging a race!

There isn't a perfect way to do it. There are as many unjusts in any system intill you have the same number of marshals on EVERY corner, as there are racers out there. Each with just one bike to watch the whole time. But unless they are all perfect clones they will interpret things differently and it still wont be fair.

I'm sorry mate, but once every coulpe years, some newbe cries about the same thing, and every time they are left with nothing more than "Deal with it, we all have".

I know you're not a newbe anymore, but I'm sure you've waded in on this same boring argument in the past.

The system is as fair as any other given the resources at hand.

[Biggles08]

Why oh Why Marcus. Do some research and use the relevant Moto GP rules in their entirety, because they work. When people cherry pick the little bits that they like they normally make rules that are unenforceable.


Now you have the correct wording, submit your rule change, but don't do things half arsed, because it is not you that has to enforce rules.

Why oh why do you see the need to come on here harassing me about doing things half arsed?! Do some research??? Why? I am suggesting an idea, not an absolute rule as I type it and send it.

Thank you for the link to the specific rules I alluded to...however, I'm not trying to write a new rule here, I am merely suggesting there is a better, fairer way...I'm not pretending to be a rule maker, I'm out there racing... pretending to be a MotoGP racer. I'll leave the wording and legal terminology up to those far more qualified. I am only tabling an idea for consideration that I believe has merit.

I have already made the suggestion to MNZ.

[Drew]

I have already made the suggestion to MNZ.

Oh Christ, they take long enough to sort shit out now, without you giving them crap to slowly ignore!

[Biggles08]

There isn't a perfect way to do it. There are as many unjusts in any system intill you have the same number of marshals on EVERY corner, as there are racers out there. Each with just one bike to watch the whole time. But unless they are all perfect clones they will interpret things differently and it still wont be fair.

Firstly...youre a retard.

....regarding the rest in this paragraph, I'm still confused as you seem to be arguing something completely different to what I am saying...

All I am suggesting is if you are caught up in a Red Flag incident you should not gain any points from that race. If you crash in any other race but its not red flagged you are a DNF. Why should it be any different if you crash but cause a Red Flag? If you DNF you should DNF in the results!

I'm sorry mate, but once every coulpe years, some newbe cries about the same thing, and every time they are left with nothing more than "Deal with it, we all have".
I know you're not a newbe anymore, but I'm sure you've waded in on this same boring argument in the past.
The system is as fair as any other given the resources at hand.

No its not....the system that does not encourage a rider to lay on a track to get the race red flagged is a better system.

I know I'm not alone in thinking this rule is silly and should be changed....in fact, your the only racer (ahem) who has said keep it this way...every other person I have talked to about this rule wants it changed too.

[Shaun]

My Vote

If you were the cause of the red flag, NO RESTART

If you were taken out by some one causing a red flag, very bad luck

[speights_bud]

".....to be able to get yourself and your motorcycle safely back to pit lane...."

Walking your bike on the track is NOT safe and would not be allowed...not to mention there are no points for coming last anyway....which you surely would if you are walking.

HAven't read the whole thread yet but under current rules you are not allowed to push bike across the line/along the track in Road racing

[Drew]

My Vote

If you were the cause of the red flag, NO RESTART

If you were taken out by some one causing a red flag, very bad luck

Christ, any hope is now lost.

[GD66]

Didn't it used to be long ago that the cause of the red couldn't restart or be counted as a finisher? Or am I thinking of something else....

That's the fairest way. Excluded from the result, which is otherwise as the bikes crossed the line on the lap before the red flag. And no restart. Any collateral damage is then confined, as other riders crashed out by the red flag cause will still be in the results as published.

[Dave-]

You won't make it back in time so can't start the race or gain points if it is not restarted...simple

Bit unfair isn't it?

You might be lucky and make it to a restart or back to the pitlane to gain points...simple really.

Bit unfair isn't it?

Who's ordered to put the red flag out, I guess they would be the timekeeper and judge and jury (COC or MNZ Steward I'd hazzard a guess).

Sounds like a good idea, can he be trusted to get it right? It won't be too much extra work load?

It seems to work for MotoGP mate.

Sweet

So you are not racing around a track for position while it is under red flag....once again simple really

If you can get a guy to time people pushing bikes back surely you can take the grid order when the red flag drops? So why go a lap back?

[speights_bud]

If you're on the ground for a period of time maybe said person needs medical clearance to resume play , this may halt that shit?

Happened at final round of Nationals this year. I was the marshal on the Quad who attended a particular red flag incident. I believe the rider (and this is my personal opinion as i was there first hand) deliberately milked the incident by tucking his head away from me until he heard me repeat back into my radio that i was happy with the red flag call as the rider was unresponsive. As soon as he heard me say that he was up and jumping about telling me he had to get going again because "This is my National championship and I'm about to win it". I wouldn't let him go until the Medics had checked him track side, which they did and then cleared him medically ok. if he had gotten back to the pits and blah blah etc... and gotten sorted in time he would have been allowed to join the restart.

I think its a good idea to check riders over but it's not suitable to use it as a means of preventing them from re-starting after being involved in a red-flag incident.

If you are tangled up by someone else causing red-flag bad luck, sucked when it happened to me an Wanganui last year but you just gotta suck it up, its a sport where we take chances, otherwise it'd be one bike on the track at a time so everybody has a 'fair' chance right? I reckon seeing Racing is a competition, if you stuff up on your own then sorry tough cookies you failed, no points. Just like crashing and NOT causing a red flag.

[Kevin G]

My Vote

If you were the cause of the red flag, NO RESTART

If you were taken out by some one causing a red flag, very bad luck

So who decides who's fault it is?..impossible to enforce and run a race meeting with this type of rule in place.
Imagine the shit fights.....

A big part of rule making is that it has to be enforceable, workable and realistic hence that is why we have the rule we do, its not perfect but it works, its easy to manage and its enforceable.

[Shaun]

So who decides who's fault it is?..impossible to enforce and run a race meeting with this type of rule in place.
Imagine the shit fights.....

A big part of rule making is that it has to be enforceable, workable and realistic hence that is why we have the rule we do, its not perfect but it works, its easy to manage and its enforceable.

If a bike hits the ground, it MUST be re scruitineered prior to be ridden on the track again, Correct?

so if a red flag is held out, that calls for the race to be stopped correct?

So are the cluibs going to change there rules and have less classes racing on the day to allow for bikes to be picked up and re scruitineered?

NO Obviously not!

So as I posted, you have my vote

Rules are rules, but what I am reading on here today in this and other threads, people have there heads stuck to far up there arses and stuck in the 1980z to make any changes and use this site as a healthy working tool to improve OUR sport.

next I will read in this thread that this is not the place to discuss such matters hahahaha where is the OFFICUAL MNZ web site to discuss this stuff on then, You got, it does not exist because we never needed it 26 years ago, get real people

[Drew]

next I will read in this thread that this is not the place to discuss such matters hahahaha where is the OFFICUAL MNZ web site to discuss this stuff on then, You got, it does not exist because we never needed it 26 years ago, get real people

That's a bit inflamitory, are you still taking the meds big fella?